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cmuratori's profile
Casey Muratori
Casey Muratori
Casey Muratori
@cmuratori

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Casey Muratori

@cmuratori

I'm worried that the baby thinks people can't change.

Seattle
caseymuratori.com
Joined March 2009

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    1. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 4 Mar 2020
      Replying to @cmuratori @BatmanAoD and

      Many (all?) the things they think are free actually aren't free at all.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    2. Kyle J Strand‏ @BatmanAoD 4 Mar 2020
      Replying to @cmuratori @mttkay and

      I don't have experience actually writing assembly, but I can imagine there being cases where a human can hand-optimize register allocation better than some specific compiler, sure. So, to take a different example: what about generic monomorphization? Isn't that "free" at runtime?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Kyle J Strand‏ @BatmanAoD 4 Mar 2020
      Replying to @BatmanAoD @cmuratori and

      (...since it happens at compile time?) I.e., a monomorphized function call is equivalent to a non-polymorphic function call. So that seems truly zero-cost.

      0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. This Tweet is unavailable.
    5. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 4 Mar 2020
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @BatmanAoD and

      But actually it's not even zero-cost if you remove all those things. It's hypothetical zero-cost is only if you assume that the compiler does a perfect job of trading off between "commonizing" and specializing the monomorphs, which no compiler does.

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    6. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 4 Mar 2020
      Replying to @cmuratori @Jonathan_Blow and

      Because actually what happens is that the compiler usually overspecializes, producing specialized versions for every possible morph, rather than parameterizing some in ways that are free to do in asm (like with register instead of immediate offsets).

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    7. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 4 Mar 2020
      Replying to @cmuratori @Jonathan_Blow and

      Really the core concept here that needs to be understood is anything that is not supervised by an expert is probably being done less efficiently than it should be. "Zero cost" is just not a good term. It's never zero cost. We could have a different term, surely.

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    8. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 4 Mar 2020
      Replying to @cmuratori @Jonathan_Blow and

      But the term "zero cost" should be retired because it gives people (especially those that don't know how to look at compiler output!) a false sense of security that they are not creating inefficient programs by employing a particular feature, when often times they actually are.

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
    9. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 4 Mar 2020
      Replying to @cmuratori @Jonathan_Blow and

      It doesn't necessarily mean they should do that, because maybe they don't have time / aren't capable of / etc. doing the optimal thing. But there's a difference between _choosing_ to make inefficient code, and _not knowing_ you made inefficient code.

      1 reply 1 retweet 15 likes
    10. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 4 Mar 2020
      Replying to @cmuratori @Jonathan_Blow and

      Yet another way to say it would be to say that "zero cost abstractions" are often "zero cost" in the same way that watching a movie on Netflix is "zero cost". It's only "zero cost" if you don't count the $15/mo subscription fee, the fact that the selection is limited, etc.

      2 replies 2 retweets 8 likes
      Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 4 Mar 2020
      Replying to @cmuratori @Jonathan_Blow and

      We all understand that watching a movie on Netflix isn't "zero cost", but we don't all understand that using various modern language features isn't "zero cost", and we should. That's all.

      12:25 PM - 4 Mar 2020
      • 14 Likes
      • Gorky Rojas 😺💻 G_glop Mehmet Akyüz Łukasz knutaf Ahmed Hesham Serkan Pekçetin Matthew Williams
      1 reply 0 retweets 14 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. José Luis Ricón Fernández de la Puente‏ @ArtirKel 4 Mar 2020
          Replying to @cmuratori @Jonathan_Blow and

          An example of this: Someone tried this with rust (Which claims to have zero cost abstractions), found a bug in the compiler where a case is NOT zero cost https://www.joshmcguigan.com/blog/cost-of-indirection-rust/ … causing a substantial performance degradation (2x slower, seemingly due to cache misses)

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Kyle J Strand‏ @BatmanAoD 4 Mar 2020
          Replying to @ArtirKel @cmuratori and

          The discussion above is about whether lambdas _can be_ implemented in a way that is not "complex and slow", or if the abstraction itself is _inherently_ "complex and slow". Compiler bugs are bad, obviously, but don't answer this question one way or the other.

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. End of conversation

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