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cmuratori's profile
Casey Muratori
Casey Muratori
Casey Muratori
@cmuratori

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Casey Muratori

@cmuratori

I'm worried that the baby thinks people can't change.

Seattle
caseymuratori.com
Joined March 2009

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    1. kalin‏ @kalin_t 7 Jan 2020
      Replying to @_tomcc @Jonathan_Blow

      Sounds like perhaps the design is not thinking about it well for multithreaded (and hiding that behind lockless stuff); for example just cache the new entries on thread local and then do your lock & bulk copy at a well-controlled time.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Tommaso Checchi‏Verified account @_tomcc 7 Jan 2020
      Replying to @kalin_t @Jonathan_Blow

      I don't really see how avoiding locking is "not thinking about it well"... making an entire class of bugs impossible is definitely thinking about it well. Use the right tool for the job! A ton of duct tape around mutexes probably ain't it.

      0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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    4. Tommaso Checchi‏Verified account @_tomcc 7 Jan 2020
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @kalin_t

      That’s cool but calling names isn’t a point...

      0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    5. This Tweet is unavailable.
    6. Tommaso Checchi‏Verified account @_tomcc 7 Jan 2020
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @kalin_t

      Why not? To me the contract of a "pipe" is inherently non-blocking, and trying to build a nonblocking pipe on top of mutexes is a risky endeavor. Of course it's possible but there's no downside to using a bug-free existing queue, while writing your own is pretty risky.

      0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
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    9. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 7 Jan 2020
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @_tomcc @kalin_t

      The phrase "lock-free" is the problem here, and it should probably be banished. The correct phrase is "wait-free", as in http://cs.brown.edu/~mph/Herlihy91/p124-herlihy.pdf …, and that has nothing to do with whether or not you implement it with a "mutex".

      2 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
    10. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 7 Jan 2020
      Replying to @cmuratori @Jonathan_Blow and

      The phrase "lock-free" makes it sound like nobody is holding a mutex because they didn't physically issue the mutex in their code. But that is false. The CPU core _is_ taking the mutex, via MESI, unless you are literally talking about instructions that don't use the LOCK prefix.

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
      Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 7 Jan 2020
      Replying to @cmuratori @Jonathan_Blow and

      So we need to start understanding that "wait free" is the important thing, and "lock free" is more of a programming fetish thing that doesn't matter in the slightest as far as I've seen.

      5:23 PM - 7 Jan 2020
      • 16 Likes
      • Juha Kallio-Kujala kalin Cristi Croitor 💾 bc1n0 Bill Merrill maciej Gorky Rojas 😺💻 Prince_Kiwii Goolic
      2 replies 0 retweets 16 likes
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        2. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 7 Jan 2020
          Replying to @bobpoekert @Jonathan_Blow and

          Not sure what you mean. Writing to the data structure, "lock-free" or otherwise, will invalidate that cache line anyway. Using a mutex field in the cache line instead of a "lock-free" sequence of writes doesn't change that?

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. End of conversation
        1. Tom Forsyth‏ @tom_forsyth 7 Jan 2020
          Replying to @cmuratori @Jonathan_Blow and

          It mainly because using either lock primitives or (gods help you) LL/SC are often inherently slow even when there's no contention. You get the algorithmic AND practical pain. But yeah, "lock free" doesn't save you from bad design.

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
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        2. Tommaso Checchi‏Verified account @_tomcc 7 Jan 2020
          Replying to @cmuratori @Jonathan_Blow @kalin_t

          There's a pretty substantial difference between a critical section and a "lock free" algorithm however you want to call it, and that is that it won't deschedule your thread for at least 15ms due to OS granularity. An atomic won't miss a frame or cause a pop, a mutex will.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 7 Jan 2020
          Replying to @_tomcc @Jonathan_Blow @kalin_t

          That is a misuse of the term "mutex" and not what Jon was talking about. He is talking about literal mutual exclusion, not a particular operating system's implementation of a mutex. A mutex can be as simple as a looped compare exchange. It does not have to call the OS at all.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
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