okay then people who use "consciousness" to mean "cognition" or "self-modifying cognition" or "video cameras pointed at mirrors" or what-have-you what is their term for having a subjective point of view that experiences qualia
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Replying to @chaosprime @oimoiles
that concept is Invalid and Incoherent and does not deserve additional wordspace
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I agree with chaos' main complaint but I also don't like the idea of qualia
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hunh what's wrong with it
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this wiki captures my complaints & more, but my main comment was that qualia overemphasizes "thingness" (cf. Helmholtz's thought experiment on the page) when in fact thingness (& attention!) arises from a feedback loop of motivated sensing & acting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia#Epistemological_issues …
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Replying to @qorprate @chaosprime and
i was going to comment earlier on how Freud understood that consciousness is dependent on memory but everyone since has forgotten, and then emphasize how qualia as an idea is directly contingent on attention which is guided by memory/experience, but i deleted before posting
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the whole "thingness" deal is obviously nonsense, people recoil from "raw feels" because they're cowards all i'm trying to say is that experiences are happening, if people have poisoned "qualia" with too much nonsense okay but idk what to say to ping the right associations then
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I think your use of sense impressions is fine enough, sense data is another popular term. I totally get now that you didnt mean qualia in the way most philosopher do.
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good lord what are most philosophers trying to use it for that whole "my sense data about the Coke can has a magical relationship to the actual Coke can and that magical relationship is real and strong and my friend" routine?
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Hard to say, its a debate in and of itself. Chalmers' use is that qualia are the mental correlates to physical cognitive processes, and in general uses the existence of qualia to support mind-body dualism. This use is probably the most well recognized.
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ergh i am violently ambivalent about this like it's so close to right it enrages me how painfully wrong it is
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Curious, where does it come close?
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"mental correlates to physical cognitive processes" is like, KIND OF yes? but of course is the kind of thing you'd say if you've already decided the mind is a separate substance from the body?
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