so I guess my response here is that Jaynes quasi-psychoanalytic definition of consciousness as "being a linguistic subject" seems to be the only definition that still feels like it fits the boundaries we've just established, but it's unfortunately banal
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Replying to @qorprate @chaosprime and
the irony here is that if consciousness is downstream of language then qualia (as commonly defined) is inherently inaccessible to consciousness
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it isn't, though, Jaynes isn't just banal he's wrong
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pls provide me a better definition of consciousness then so I can "update my priors"
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i mean, having a subjective point of view that's experiencing things is the best way i know to point at it if i'm tabooing "qualia"
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"subjective" -> Cartesian subject -> downstream of language, consciousness as media etc "experiencing things" ("experience" as transitive verb) -> experience implies thingness -> aforementioned epistemological problems with qualia ^ not a full counterargument, just thoughts
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Descartes was just being a nerd, subjectivity isn't downstream of language, lots of people have memories of preverbal experiences, i do if he weren't so big a nerd it'd be "i experience therefor i am" i mean experiencing things in the idiomatic sense not the one from that page
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id argue subjectivity requires more than just memory, it requires a notion of selfhood, a subject and the colloquial usage of experience seems like either attention-to-perception (implying pattern/thing recognition) or else narrative self-insertion which implies a subject
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i don't think it does, i think experience comes first and we learn actually much, much later to assign those experiences to a persona-identity-history those things may be implied by the usage, yeah, which is a reason why the usage is a halfassed tool to use to point to the thing
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experience as pure pattern recognition doesn't necessarily require a subject, it's sort of like the subject emerges slowly as a higher level pattern above the experienced patterns... but at what point does a baby become conscious?
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real damn early, i claim raw conscious experience is the ground from which all this pattern recognition (construction) and identity boundary formation emerges, the fancy architecture depends on it, it does not depend on the fancy architecture
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I see, I guess I would personally call that something other than consciousness (maybe perception, what Jaynes accused Russell of doing) but also these words all fucking suck, a better route would be clarifying metaphors or topologies but it's too late at night for me to do that
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it helps if you kick all connotations derived from "self-consciousness" out of "consciousness" i.e. consider that the "self-" is there for a reason and is an important differentiation
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