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chaosprime's profile
Chaos
Chaos
Chaos
@chaosprime

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Chaos

@chaosprime

problemagic

Joined July 2012

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    1. neurotypical silver medal snav‏ @qorprate Oct 21
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      Replying to @chaosprime @TWakalix @oimoiles

      so I guess my response here is that Jaynes quasi-psychoanalytic definition of consciousness as "being a linguistic subject" seems to be the only definition that still feels like it fits the boundaries we've just established, but it's unfortunately banal

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    2. neurotypical silver medal snav‏ @qorprate Oct 21
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      Replying to @qorprate @chaosprime and

      the irony here is that if consciousness is downstream of language then qualia (as commonly defined) is inherently inaccessible to consciousness

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    3. Chaos‏ @chaosprime Oct 21
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      Replying to @qorprate @TWakalix @oimoiles

      it isn't, though, Jaynes isn't just banal he's wrong

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    4. neurotypical silver medal snav‏ @qorprate Oct 21
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      Replying to @chaosprime @TWakalix @oimoiles

      pls provide me a better definition of consciousness then so I can "update my priors"

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    5. Chaos‏ @chaosprime Oct 21
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      Replying to @qorprate @TWakalix @oimoiles

      i mean, having a subjective point of view that's experiencing things is the best way i know to point at it if i'm tabooing "qualia"

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    6. neurotypical silver medal snav‏ @qorprate Oct 21
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      Replying to @chaosprime @TWakalix @oimoiles

      "subjective" -> Cartesian subject -> downstream of language, consciousness as media etc "experiencing things" ("experience" as transitive verb) -> experience implies thingness -> aforementioned epistemological problems with qualia ^ not a full counterargument, just thoughts

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    7. Chaos‏ @chaosprime Oct 21
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      Replying to @qorprate @TWakalix @oimoiles

      Descartes was just being a nerd, subjectivity isn't downstream of language, lots of people have memories of preverbal experiences, i do if he weren't so big a nerd it'd be "i experience therefor i am" i mean experiencing things in the idiomatic sense not the one from that page

      2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    8. neurotypical silver medal snav‏ @qorprate Oct 21
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      Replying to @chaosprime @TWakalix @oimoiles

      id argue subjectivity requires more than just memory, it requires a notion of selfhood, a subject and the colloquial usage of experience seems like either attention-to-perception (implying pattern/thing recognition) or else narrative self-insertion which implies a subject

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Chaos‏ @chaosprime Oct 21
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      Replying to @qorprate @TWakalix @oimoiles

      i don't think it does, i think experience comes first and we learn actually much, much later to assign those experiences to a persona-identity-history those things may be implied by the usage, yeah, which is a reason why the usage is a halfassed tool to use to point to the thing

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    10. neurotypical silver medal snav‏ @qorprate Oct 21
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      Replying to @chaosprime @TWakalix @oimoiles

      experience as pure pattern recognition doesn't necessarily require a subject, it's sort of like the subject emerges slowly as a higher level pattern above the experienced patterns... but at what point does a baby become conscious?

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
      Chaos‏ @chaosprime Oct 21
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      Replying to @qorprate @TWakalix @oimoiles

      real damn early, i claim raw conscious experience is the ground from which all this pattern recognition (construction) and identity boundary formation emerges, the fancy architecture depends on it, it does not depend on the fancy architecture

      9:42 PM - 21 Oct 2019
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        2. neurotypical silver medal snav‏ @qorprate Oct 21
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          Replying to @chaosprime @TWakalix @oimoiles

          I see, I guess I would personally call that something other than consciousness (maybe perception, what Jaynes accused Russell of doing) but also these words all fucking suck, a better route would be clarifying metaphors or topologies but it's too late at night for me to do that

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Chaos‏ @chaosprime Oct 21
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          Replying to @qorprate @TWakalix @oimoiles

          it helps if you kick all connotations derived from "self-consciousness" out of "consciousness" i.e. consider that the "self-" is there for a reason and is an important differentiation

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
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