okay, so conditioning is a form of memory to Freud without any need for episodic or semantic recall. fair my answer to your blackout question is obviously correct in Freud, then, since your lack of episodic memory is irrelevant
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so I guess my response here is that Jaynes quasi-psychoanalytic definition of consciousness as "being a linguistic subject" seems to be the only definition that still feels like it fits the boundaries we've just established, but it's unfortunately banal
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Replying to @qorprate @chaosprime and
the irony here is that if consciousness is downstream of language then qualia (as commonly defined) is inherently inaccessible to consciousness
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it isn't, though, Jaynes isn't just banal he's wrong
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pls provide me a better definition of consciousness then so I can "update my priors"
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i mean, having a subjective point of view that's experiencing things is the best way i know to point at it if i'm tabooing "qualia"
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"subjective" -> Cartesian subject -> downstream of language, consciousness as media etc "experiencing things" ("experience" as transitive verb) -> experience implies thingness -> aforementioned epistemological problems with qualia ^ not a full counterargument, just thoughts
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Descartes was just being a nerd, subjectivity isn't downstream of language, lots of people have memories of preverbal experiences, i do if he weren't so big a nerd it'd be "i experience therefor i am" i mean experiencing things in the idiomatic sense not the one from that page
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id argue subjectivity requires more than just memory, it requires a notion of selfhood, a subject and the colloquial usage of experience seems like either attention-to-perception (implying pattern/thing recognition) or else narrative self-insertion which implies a subject
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Replying to @qorprate @chaosprime and
the question remaining for me is where do we put consciousness in relation to these things?
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