okay then people who use "consciousness" to mean "cognition" or "self-modifying cognition" or "video cameras pointed at mirrors" or what-have-you what is their term for having a subjective point of view that experiences qualia
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Replying to @chaosprime @oimoiles
that concept is Invalid and Incoherent and does not deserve additional wordspace
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I agree with chaos' main complaint but I also don't like the idea of qualia
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hunh what's wrong with it
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this wiki captures my complaints & more, but my main comment was that qualia overemphasizes "thingness" (cf. Helmholtz's thought experiment on the page) when in fact thingness (& attention!) arises from a feedback loop of motivated sensing & acting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia#Epistemological_issues …
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Replying to @qorprate @chaosprime and
i was going to comment earlier on how Freud understood that consciousness is dependent on memory but everyone since has forgotten, and then emphasize how qualia as an idea is directly contingent on attention which is guided by memory/experience, but i deleted before posting
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the whole "thingness" deal is obviously nonsense, people recoil from "raw feels" because they're cowards all i'm trying to say is that experiences are happening, if people have poisoned "qualia" with too much nonsense okay but idk what to say to ping the right associations then
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so the relationship between experience and consciousness is kind of weird. most obvious example: I get drunk, black out and do something stupid. I wake up with no recollection, no conscious memory of it. did I Really experience it in the given sense? how conscious was I?
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Chaos Retweeted ds9 se01ep10 move along home defender
yes and 100% imo this woman would appear to disagree rather strongly with Freudhttps://twitter.com/allamaraine4/status/1186349531274891270 …
Chaos added,
ds9 se01ep10 move along home defender @allamaraine4@chaosprime have you seen this? https://www.wired.com/2016/04/susie-mckinnon-autobiographical-memory-sdam/ … - seems relevant to a few things you've posted about - tl;dr is that memory as most think of it doesn't seem to be necessary for "being a living, breathing, functioning conscious human" (as most think of it)1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes -
Freud's usage of memory specifically does not imply conscious access, simply a persistence of structural changes and byproducts of experience (otherwise repression etc would be pure rather than only partly nonsense)
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okay, so conditioning is a form of memory to Freud without any need for episodic or semantic recall. fair my answer to your blackout question is obviously correct in Freud, then, since your lack of episodic memory is irrelevant
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so I guess my response here is that Jaynes quasi-psychoanalytic definition of consciousness as "being a linguistic subject" seems to be the only definition that still feels like it fits the boundaries we've just established, but it's unfortunately banal
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Replying to @qorprate @chaosprime and
the irony here is that if consciousness is downstream of language then qualia (as commonly defined) is inherently inaccessible to consciousness
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