I don't buy the "conceal from themselves" part tbh. A lot of this "self-deception" stuff is just whitewashing regular ass deception on account of it being hard to prove.
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Replying to @0K_ultra
fair tbh imo doublethink is real as hell but obviously it is impossible for me to have data on how widespread it is
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Replying to @chaosprime @0K_ultra
I think Hanson and Simler made a strong case that self-deception is highly pervasive in EitB. Deep dives with people who advocate harmful “helping” has convinced me the social component is a very strong factor: Many things are unthinkable b/c of the felt ostracism potential.
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Replying to @delysis @chaosprime
I don't think we have the technology to reliably differentiate between self-deception and operational imitation thereof. Of course a bad actor would emulate making a honest mistake, especially a smart one.
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Replying to @0K_ultra @chaosprime
Folly is the cloak of knavery, for sure. But, it’s rarely constructive to assume an adversary is insincere, there is tremendous emotional incentive to do so, and that’s a big part of what makes insincere-seeming actors so infuriating in the first place. So I choose not to.
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Replying to @delysis @chaosprime
my personal attitude towards "insincere actors" group is opposite - I tend to expect it has agents I might be able to negotiate a truce with, while "real do gooder with a confirmation bias glitch" opponent is an implacable enemy that can only be exterminated
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Replying to @0K_ultra @chaosprime
I understand that in theory, but has that ever worked? “You’re right, I was posing, now to brass tacks” I have convinced do gooders assuming consensus ~= reality to earnestly consider the facts and change their mind. I have even been the naive one shown the light > once.
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Replying to @delysis @chaosprime
Well, why, yes, in my country's LEAs that is very often how it works, but even more often it's just a matter of motherfuckers having a "migration path" that follows the incentives rather than proscribed ideology. You can reasonably expect them to just walk away if you dry up well
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With do gooders, no such luck. I do nominally admit that maybe that type of person can change their mind, especially if not particularly strongly committed to it in the first place, or having a higher commitment to some rational principle above whateverfuck they are doogoodering
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about. As a creature in one of my weird dreams once said, "you can reason a scientist who is a nazi out of being a nazi, but it won't work on a nazi who just happened to do science"
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dang, smart fuckin’ creature you got there
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Replying to @chaosprime @0K_ultra
Yeah, rad dream entity! But what if the doogooder actually care about outcomes? Example: I know very sincere antiracists who were genuinely surprised and interested in the literature showing sensitivity training exascerbates race-based decision-making. I call that progress.
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Replying to @chaosprime @delysis
Well, he was, after all, a monster scientist. I think I tweeted about that dream a while ago...
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