"prior to the invention of the toilet wizards just shat themselves and disapparated it"
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Replying to @chaosprime @Aelkus
Ok, so terminal nerdism here, but let's go deeper. is that "speculative" fantasy? I think fantasy can be allegorical but not speculative. I think if it is speculative I'd classify as a sub-genre of magical realism rather than fantasy.
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Replying to @danlistensto @Aelkus
was the point of 'speculative fiction' not to break out of the technical fetishism of the 'science fiction' label and embrace fantasy that tries to have a coherent worldview? how much are we trusting the Wikipedia article here exactly?
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Replying to @chaosprime @Aelkus
I think it was to distinguish between technology focused fiction vs. culturally focused fiction. Fantasy is specifically fiction told in a mytho-poetic mode and spec-fic does not umbrella that type of fiction.
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so 1984 is spec-fic but probably not sci-fi, though you will usually find it on the sci-fi shelf (among other places)
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Replying to @danlistensto @Aelkus
but we're absolutely awash in extremely popular fantasy novels, at least by everybody's categorization of them, which would not know a mythopoetic mode of storytelling if it bit them on the ass and which are hugely devoted to nuts-and-bolts doing-the-math worldbuilding
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Replying to @chaosprime @Aelkus
name 3 and convince me that they are not using the mytho-poetic mode (as opposed to using it as a secondary element, or using it badly)?
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Replying to @danlistensto @Aelkus
well, i had three series in mind: A Song of Ice and Fire, The First Law, and The Wheel of Time i mean, it's probably always possible to say the mythopoetic mode is being used badly, but if the actual storytelling is all about nuts and bolts, maybe it's just not being used
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Replying to @chaosprime @Aelkus
I shall have to mull this over. I'm not familiar with The First Law, actually.
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I will, however, say that I firmly believe ASOIAF is absolutely 100% using the mytho-poetic mode, using it competently, but as a stylistic element is deploying averted or subverted tropes all over the place. The tropes, however, are mytho-poetic tropes.
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well, let's try to find out if we're talking about the same thing. i would say that mythopoetic storytelling runs on narrative causality, where "realistic" stories run on some kind of halfassed emulated psychosocial causality pretending to be physical causality
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are you saying that ASoIaF is just hiding a mythopoetic story under a bunch of ~realistic~ window dressing?
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Replying to @chaosprime @Aelkus
it's not actually hiding it, it's pretty in your face about, and the realism is not actually realism, that's what subverted tropes look like from the inside
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