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caitlinrgreen's profile
Dr Caitlin Green
Dr Caitlin Green
Dr Caitlin Green
@caitlinrgreen

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Dr Caitlin Green

@caitlinrgreen

History, archaeology, place-names & early lit. Main research on post-Roman Britain & Anglo-Saxon England; also long-distance trade, migration & contact.

Cornwall/Lincolnshire
caitlingreen.org
Joined August 2014

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    1. Dr Sarah Taber‏ @SarahTaber_bww Aug 19

      Dr Sarah Taber Retweeted AndyM

      oh man the ancient world had SO MUCH more long-distance trade than the West is prepared to to think about we forget that the Dark Ages were exactly that. Europe's end of the global trade networks shut down, & to this day we still think of that shut-down state as "normal."https://twitter.com/IOnceAteALeaf/status/1031209548147843072 …

      Dr Sarah Taber added,

      AndyM @IOnceAteALeaf
      Replying to @SarahTaber_bww
      I'm kind of surprised to learn that opium was cultivated in 1200 BCE Greece. Always thought it was native to Asia and eventually traded with the Romans. Guess I'll just never know how connected that world was.
      61 replies 545 retweets 1,593 likes
    2. Dr Caitlin Green‏ @caitlinrgreen Aug 20
      Replying to @SarahTaber_bww

      I have to admit to be *extremely* sceptical (like most 'early medievalists', I think) of the "Dark Ages", and sceptical too of any idea that long-distance trade networks in Europe shut down completely after, say, the 5thC... :-/

      4 replies 4 retweets 72 likes
    3. Techie no longer on island time :(‏ @Infoseepage Aug 20
      Replying to @caitlinrgreen @SarahTaber_bww

      Completely, no. What were the dark ages if not a time when Europe contracted into hundreds of pocket kingdoms, greatly restricting flows of people, ideas and material? Pretty much all the things you cite are highly portable status objects of great value (jewelry, spices, etc.)

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Dr Caitlin Green‏ @caitlinrgreen Aug 20
      Replying to @Infoseepage @SarahTaber_bww

      Well, the Dark Ages didn't really exist, and the term is now widely avoided ;) Tbh, the arch evidence is, imho, pretty impressive and goes well beyond a handful portable objects, plus is backed up by the textual evidence for continued (or even intensified) links >

      3:00 PM - 20 Aug 2018
      • 7 Likes
      • Dr Anne Marie D'Arcy Dr Leonie Hicks Kathryne B. Alfred Henry Dr Christina Lee Josephine Quinn Dr Jamie Anderson
      9 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
        1. Dr Sarah Taber‏ @SarahTaber_bww Aug 20
          Replying to @caitlinrgreen @Infoseepage

          Yup, I 100% appreciate that there was much more trade than folks typically think btwn the collapse of the western Roman Empire & the Renaissance. That is in fact a big part of my beef w how folks perceive history of food, e.g. believing food was "always" local until v recently.

          0 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
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        2. Dr Sarah Taber‏ @SarahTaber_bww Aug 20
          Replying to @caitlinrgreen @Infoseepage

          (2/) That said. From an agricultural trade POV, drawing a line btwn pre- & post-Roman trade patterns is still very useful. Prior, there was routine, massive long-distance bulk trade of food. Afterwards, trade was much more restricted to elite prestige goods.

          2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        3. Techie no longer on island time :(‏ @Infoseepage Aug 20
          Replying to @SarahTaber_bww @caitlinrgreen

          This, exactly. Consider that maybe half a billion (with a b) pounds of grain were imported to Rome every year from North Africa, Sicily, Egypt, etc. 3000 pounds of pepper in Gaul is just so minuscule next to that! The smallest Roman merchant vessels carried 70+ tons!

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. Dr Caitlin Green‏ @caitlinrgreen Aug 21
          Replying to @Infoseepage @SarahTaber_bww

          But we were talking, I thought, about cross-continent trading and whether that collapsed; what you're talking about was all within the Roman Empire, which is a separate discussion... On the 2nd point, 3000 lbs of one spice, to one region of Europe, may not seem much, perhaps, >

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        5. Dr Caitlin Green‏ @caitlinrgreen Aug 21
          Replying to @caitlinrgreen @Infoseepage @SarahTaber_bww

          > but I still think it very significant (note, the largest classical era find is 75kg) in showing continued operation of significant trading networks linking Europe to Indo-Pacific region, and that these didn't collapse, which was the claim I was voicing scepticism towards :) >

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        6. Dr Caitlin Green‏ @caitlinrgreen Aug 21
          Replying to @caitlinrgreen @Infoseepage @SarahTaber_bww

          > In my view, evidence we have is, despite its admitted patchiness etc, enough to show that long-distance trade networks did indeed continue and that new ones formed; in fact, more arch & documentary records for 6th-8thC links to China, for example, than earlier, I'd suggest…!

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        7. Dr Caitlin Green‏ @caitlinrgreen Aug 21
          Replying to @caitlinrgreen @Infoseepage @SarahTaber_bww

          > Moreover, the evidence for Central Asian trade links to northern and eastern Europe really can't be ignored: one estimate is that perhaps as many as 100 million or more silver dirhams were imported into these regions in return for slaves, furs etc, which is astonishing >pic.twitter.com/PLL0Rymo63

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        8. Dr Caitlin Green‏ @caitlinrgreen Aug 21
          Replying to @caitlinrgreen @Infoseepage @SarahTaber_bww

          Some back of an envelope calculations in https://www.academia.edu/1764468/Dirhams_for_slaves._Investigating_the_Slavic_slave_trade_in_the_tenth_century … for the scale of 10thC slave trade to, primarily, Samanid Empire in Afghanistan, Uzbekistan etc; if even remotely right then they imply trade from N/E Europe involving potentially hundreds of thousands of slaves...pic.twitter.com/ghXr1fdi0y

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        9. Dr Caitlin Green‏ @caitlinrgreen Aug 21
          Replying to @caitlinrgreen @Infoseepage @SarahTaber_bww

          > And if we look to later medieval period, with its better surviving documentation, then we find plenty of evidence for significant scales of cross-continent/Indo-Pacific trade e.g. 15thC wedding feast of Hedwig Jagiellon to son of the Duke of Bavaria involved over 1,000 lbs >

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        10. 1 more reply
        1. Dr Sarah Taber‏ @SarahTaber_bww Aug 20
          Replying to @caitlinrgreen @Infoseepage

          (3/) Whether it was cause or effect, that dropoff in long-distance food trade was involved in a huge shift in the balance of power between cities & rural areas. It's also had huge implications in how folks think food is "supposed" to work.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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        1. Dr Sarah Taber‏ @SarahTaber_bww Aug 20
          Replying to @caitlinrgreen @Infoseepage

          (4/) The hyperlocal manorial food system is seen as normal/ideal (& relates to "blood & soil" nativism, hostility towards cities as legitimate centers of power, etc). Basically, food economics is tied into a lot of the toxic politics medieval studies is dealing with right now.

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
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        2. Dr Sarah Taber‏ @SarahTaber_bww Aug 20
          Replying to @caitlinrgreen @Infoseepage

          (5/) Also, scrolling through my feed will reveal that I had done a clarification on long-distance medieval trade a few minutes after the OP, using your work.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Dr Caitlin Green‏ @caitlinrgreen Aug 21
          Replying to @SarahTaber_bww @Infoseepage

          Apologies, I fear I'm finding the thread rather unnavigable in its extent and missed that :)

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        4. End of conversation
        1. Dr Sarah Taber‏ @SarahTaber_bww Aug 20
          Replying to @caitlinrgreen @Infoseepage

          (6/) I'm an ag scientist working on the people side of "why do we keep having bad ag even though we know better." It's an incredibly interdisciplinary field. The nature of ID work is it's not always going to prioritize exactly the same things that specialists do.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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        2. Dr Sarah Taber‏ @SarahTaber_bww Aug 20
          Replying to @caitlinrgreen @Infoseepage

          (7/) Is the term "Dark Ages" super passé amongst historical specialists? Yes. Is it relevant for addressing growth & attenuation of intercontinental food trade networks over thousand-year+ timespans and laypeople's perceptions thereof? Also yes.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Dr Caitlin Green‏ @caitlinrgreen Aug 21
          Replying to @SarahTaber_bww @Infoseepage

          Dr Caitlin Green Retweeted Dr Caitlin Green

          Well, that's a somewhat different to the suggestion in the original tweet that the European end of the cross-continental trade networks shut down :) Though even on this basis I'd urge caution in using the 'Dark Ages' and am not wholly sold on the idea… https://twitter.com/caitlinrgreen/status/1031838636348780544 … :)

          Dr Caitlin Green added,

          Dr Caitlin Green @caitlinrgreen
          Replying to @Infoseepage @SarahTaber_bww
          But we were talking, I thought, about cross-continent trading and whether that collapsed; what you're talking about was all within the Roman Empire, which is a separate discussion... On the 2nd point, 3000 lbs of one spice, to one region of Europe, may not seem much, perhaps, >
          0 replies 1 retweet 3 likes
        4. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Dr Caitlin Green‏ @caitlinrgreen Aug 20
          Replying to @caitlinrgreen @Infoseepage @SarahTaber_bww

          Dr Caitlin Green Retweeted Dr Caitlin Green

          > E.g. https://twitter.com/caitlinrgreen/status/924366399702732801 … >

          Dr Caitlin Green added,

          Dr Caitlin Green @caitlinrgreen
          Replying to @caitlinrgreen
          For interest, 'Sogdiana, its Christians, and Byzantium: a Study of Artistic+Cultural Connections in Late Antiquity': https://www.academia.edu/27959139/Sogdiana_its_Christians_and_Byzantium_a_Study_of_Artistic_and_Cultural_Connections_in_Late_Antiquity_and_Early_Middle_Ages …
          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Dr Caitlin Green‏ @caitlinrgreen Aug 20
          Replying to @caitlinrgreen @Infoseepage @SarahTaber_bww

          > e.g.https://byzantineperspectives.wordpress.com/2015/10/17/what-does-tang-china-have-in-common-with-anglo-saxon-england/ …

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Dr Caitlin Green‏ @caitlinrgreen Aug 20
          Replying to @caitlinrgreen @Infoseepage @SarahTaber_bww

          > e.g. https://www.academia.edu/1764468/Dirhams_for_slaves._Investigating_the_Slavic_slave_trade_in_the_tenth_century … etc etc :)

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Techie no longer on island time :(‏ @Infoseepage Aug 20
          Replying to @caitlinrgreen @SarahTaber_bww

          The term has taken on too many popular connotations, to be sure, but I have a hard time seeing the centuries following the collapse of roman rule in the west as anything other than a dark age.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Brad‏ @BradCorContrera Aug 20
          Replying to @Infoseepage @caitlinrgreen @SarahTaber_bww

          Historians referred to the Early Middle Ages as a Dark Age because they lacked documentary evidence from the place and period. Also, it wasn't culturally or technologically dark, e.g. Islamic Spain introduced new irrigation and crops (rice, sugarcane, cotton.)

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Brad‏ @BradCorContrera Aug 20
          Replying to @BradCorContrera @Infoseepage and

          Early Middle Ages also saw an agricultural transition from Roman latifundia to medieval manors; slaves became serfs. Slaves owed unlimited labor to their owners. Serfs owed limited labor to their owners, could have families, and could work rented land.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        5. End of conversation

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