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avibryant's profile
Avi Bryant
Avi Bryant
Avi Bryant
@avibryant

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Avi Bryant

@avibryant

Happiest when working on Random Forests from random beaches.

Galiano Island
avibryant.com
Joined November 2006

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    Avi Bryant‏ @avibryant Sep 21

    Hypothesis: the best environments for interactive and incremental development must have semantics that are independent of the order in which code is written. This is true of Excel, largely true of Smalltalk, but not of Lisps or the various scripting language + notebook systems.

    2:08 PM - 21 Sep 2018
    • 35 Retweets
    • 148 Likes
    • Almog Melamed Esteban A. Maringolo Herbert Vojčík samoli Daniel Feichtinger Javier Burroni Marcus Denker david roe Dave Mason
    18 replies 35 retweets 148 likes
      1. Avi Bryant‏ @avibryant Sep 21

        In longer words: it's great to be able to interactively modify your running program, but the incremental operations and the program states need to form a semilattice.

        2 replies 3 retweets 25 likes
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      2. josh_marcus‏ @josh_marcus Sep 21
        Replying to @avibryant

        Interestingly, this is true of https://beta.observablehq.com/  which has a great notebook metaphor that's independent of order.

        1 reply 1 retweet 12 likes
      3. Avi Bryant‏ @avibryant Sep 21
        Replying to @josh_marcus

        Yes, it was thinking about why I liked @observablehq so much better than previous notebooks that prompted this tweet.

        0 replies 0 retweets 9 likes
      4. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Manuel Simoni‏ @msimoni Sep 21
        Replying to @avibryant

        hm... I always thought one of the great features of Common Lisp is that you can enter a program's expressions in pretty much any order (e.g. you can create a subclass of a class that doesn't even exist yet)

        1 reply 1 retweet 6 likes
      3. Avi Bryant‏ @avibryant Sep 21
        Replying to @msimoni

        interesting, maybe I have to revise my opinion of CL. Is it fair to represent a CL program as an unordered set of top-level forms, then? What happens if, eg, you try to use a macro that hasn't been defined yet, or redefine a macro after you've used it?

        4 replies 1 retweet 3 likes
      4.  💻 🐴Ngnghm‏ @Ngnghm Sep 21
        Replying to @avibryant @msimoni

        CL has a partial order between forms, that isn't particularly amenable to static analysis, though Matt Steele did write a post facto dependency tracker using SBCL's code coverage support. Dependencies include macro definitions and compile time side effects.

        0 replies 1 retweet 2 likes
      5. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Colin Putney‏ @cputney Sep 22
        Replying to @avibryant

        I suspect Dark has this property. Is that right, @paulbiggar ?

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Paul Biggar‏ @paulbiggar Sep 22
        Replying to @cputney @avibryant

        Yes, largely. Most fns are pure and most data is immutable, and it's definitely useful for making interactive development work nicely. That said, I'm not sure it's required: we could probably have implemented something similar in a more stateful language

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. Colin Putney‏ @cputney Sep 22
        Replying to @paulbiggar @avibryant

        I guess the important thing about a spreadsheet is that it tracks data dependencies. Entering a formula is not like evaluating an expression and assigning the result to a variable.

        2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. Avi Bryant‏ @avibryant Sep 22
        Replying to @cputney @paulbiggar

        Yes, I think that's right (and again, a thing observable does well).

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      6. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Larry O’Brien‏ @lobrien Sep 21
        Replying to @avibryant

        As much as I love Smalltalk, the state of the Image was definitely execution-order-dependent. I think spreadsheets are near-unique in the advantage you describe.

        2 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
      3. Sean McDirmid‏ @seanmcdirmid18 Sep 21
        Replying to @lobrien @avibryant

        Data flow box-and-connect VPLs have that property also.

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      4. End of conversation
      1. Jason Merrill‏ @shapeoperator Sep 22
        Replying to @avibryant

        I think “order doesn’t matter” is one of the really important pieces of the @desmos calculator. Other principles are “show all state,” and “update all dependencies after each edit”.

        0 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
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      1. dcooper8‏ @dcooper8 Sep 22
        Replying to @avibryant

        Gendl/GDL is embedded in Common Lisp and has declarative order-independent syntax (somewhat like a spreadsheet) https://Genworks.com  #GenworksGDL.

        0 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
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      1.  📶‏ @coreload Sep 21
        Replying to @avibryant

        First, what do you mean by "the order in which code is written" Second, what do you mean by "semantics" Third, what do you mean by "incremental" Fourth, what do you mean by "must"

        0 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
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      1. Bill Mill‏ @llimllib Sep 21
        Replying to @avibryant

        It is largely true of @observablehq I think? And jupyter is definitely headed that way

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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      2. Peter Wang‏ @pwang Sep 21
        Replying to @avibryant

        I wouldn't put it this way. Depends a lot on what you mean by "development". Software devs != Muggles Muggles don't want to think about code except in small chunks of data transformation. *ANYTHING* that makes them reason about implicit VM or interpreter state is foreign.

        2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Peter Wang‏ @pwang Sep 21
        Replying to @pwang @avibryant

        ALGOL-derived languages force internalization of a Harvard architecture idealized computer. Lisps and FP are even further removed from literal data operands. Jim Gray correctly pointed out a decade ago that "data-independent computing" misses the mark.

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      4. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Josh Cheek‏ @josh_cheek Sep 21
        Replying to @avibryant

        My biggest frustration when I tried the IDE: I always wanted to use something and then go define it after I liked what was implied by the usage. It just did not expect that at all, it was sure I'd made a typo or missed an import or something.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      3. Josh Cheek‏ @josh_cheek Sep 21
        Replying to @josh_cheek @avibryant

        Which, I guess is fine, except that it kept interrupting me to go fix it instead of letting me continue. Also, all the fancy features didn't work right. Would have been so cool if it'd just chilled and when I was ready, either scaffolded the class or suggested the builtin.

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. End of conversation

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