But Cain describes seeing the periodic vans carrying condemned prisoners for "interrogation and live-fire exercises." He considers this totally routine. Presumably actually bad people in the context of 40k, to be clear - Cain's version of the canon rarely goes full grimdark.
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Replying to @loudpenitent @BootlegGirl and
But still - a normal, routine part of this school's operations - in a place where the faculty genuinely like & care for their charges - is training likable and "normal" teenagers, w/school crushes and such, to perform torture and live-fire combat exercises w/death row prisoners.
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Replying to @loudpenitent @BootlegGirl and
THAT is grimdark. The total normalization of a horrific atrocity, such that it is basically inescapable even for otherwise "good" people. TLOU2 is grimdark bc society bends towards decay & barbarism and NOBODY considers torture noteworthy, not bc bad things happen.
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Replying to @loudpenitent @arthur_affect and
I think it would be grimdark without the torture? Otherwise I don't disagree with the second part of your statement
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Replying to @BootlegGirl @arthur_affect and
The torture is a good example is my point. "Bad things happen" is not sufficient. "Bad things and moral atrocity happening is necessary and indeed a prerequisite to agency" is closer.
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Replying to @loudpenitent @arthur_affect and
It's not a prerequisite to agency I mean Abby has the most agency for most of the story and she doesn't use torture in the sense that you mean it during her story. (What she did to Joel was not for information.)
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Replying to @BootlegGirl @loudpenitent and
The elusiveness of the meaning of "torture" here is really important IMO like personally I only consider the thing a narrative moral event horizon when it's something done in bases or prisons or facilities, by a systematic group, for information
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Replying to @BootlegGirl @loudpenitent and
Because that definition is the one that media has been used in living memory to directly facilitate the acceptance of, and the thing we should worry about being considered okay
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Replying to @BootlegGirl @arthur_affect and
See I think that's absurd. Roughing up a captive beyond the necessities of combat by making them hurt for information or personal gratification is absolutely torture, with or without state backing.
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Replying to @loudpenitent @BootlegGirl and
You do not need a state for it to be torture, or an organization. You just need someone who wants to hurt someone already under their power very badly for personal gratification or to extract information.
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Dark Matter had in one of its first few episodes the characters arguing about this and Four assuring everyone else that he knows what he's doing and he will get accurate information from interrogating their prisoner
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Replying to @arthur_affect @loudpenitent and
And as soon as they leave he calmly says "They were right, you know There is evidence that torture is of limited use as an interrogation technique However, after a difficult battle, I have always found it personally cathartic"
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Replying to @arthur_affect @loudpenitent and
Like, you know, this guy was just trying to fucking kill you Are you really gonna follow the Geneva Conventions and treat him as an honored guest The actual historical motivation for torture - it's a reward for the winners and a deterrent for the losers - is obvious
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