Well it gets out of hand because if you do the worst thing you can do to the other guy -- kill him and leave his body to be eaten by crows etc -- then his family will come after you for doing that, and whoever kills you will then become the target for your own loved ones
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Replying to @arthur_affect @Nymphomachy
It gets out of hand because of kinship networks where people feel like they themselves can owe a duty to vengeance on behalf of a relative or friend who got killed Which is the whole glue that holds society in general together etc
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Replying to @arthur_affect
yeah I guess my point is that if kinship networks ruin revenge then maybe the problem is with the existence of kinship networks
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Replying to @Nymphomachy @arthur_affect
But *without* the kinship networks all you have to do to prevent anyone from ever taking revenge on you is pre-emptively murder anyone who you think might feel wronged by your actions.
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Replying to @Random832 @arthur_affect
I mean if you don't accept it as axiomatic that "people who victimize the innocent need to be removed", then yes
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Doing harm to an innocent person should be a sufficiently intuitive source of outrage for anyone to the point that kinship networks as the mechanism for dispensing justice shouldn't be necessary
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Replying to @Nymphomachy @Random832
Well yeah if people didn't suck we wouldn't need any form of violence to ever exist at all
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But, like my original point was that a lot of wrongdoers really don't believe what they did was wrong, or at least won't admit it The whole problem of law and justice exists in the first place because of "disagreements"
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Replying to @arthur_affect @Random832
well yeah but then doesn't that pretty much put a fork in the concept of restorative justice If somebody doesn't believe that what they did was wrong then making them do something to mitigate the damage does fuckall in terms of salving the wound
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Replying to @Nymphomachy @Random832
I dunno, usually the whole thing about vengeance is that from the avenger's side it's also kind of mutually exclusive with the desire for reconciliation "I don't want his apology, I want him dead"
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I think what she's trying to do here is point out that retributive justice isn't just a matter of people being simpleminded or ignorant, and likewise the people who call retributive justice a failure aren't just trying to be "nice"
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The desire for retribution is a deeply felt universal human imperative, it's one of the greatest sources of fulfillment and pleasure for human beings, it's core to our sense of identity and wholeness and community People LOVE punishing, you wouldn't be human if you didn''
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The reason it's a problem isn't that people who like punishing are bad people and we're more evolved, better people It's, ideally, an acknowledgment that it doesn't work, that long-term it's caused incredible harm
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