Joel betrayed people too, if we're going by pure code of honor deontology He absolutely broke faith with the Fireflies and went against his word to them
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Replying to @arthur_affect @loudpenitent and
the thing about code of honor deontologies is that they occasionally (frequently) have the result that both parties to a conflict are acting rightly!!! they're not about the purity of soul or motive, they're about what acts license what responses
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Replying to @perdricof @loudpenitent and
Yes, the fact that the ancient Greeks saw virtue in this way is the whole idea behind the Greek tragedy, that sometimes horrific results are inevitable from all sides behaving honorably
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Replying to @arthur_affect @BootlegGirl and
Right, yeah - I mean, that's what makes anything complex and interesting, where the choices and breaking points are worth spending time on. I don't need to worry about if Skeletor had a point.
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Replying to @mssilverstein @arthur_affect and
But like, the high-philosophy moralizing seems largely beyond the point sometimes, here. What would you counsel Abby/Ellie if you were a friend?
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Replying to @mssilverstein @BootlegGirl and
If I were anyone in the story other than Joel or Ellie I would absolutely kill Joel and let them dissect Ellie and I think the whole honorable paladin "You never murder innocents!" thing is a real failure of imagination
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Replying to @arthur_affect @mssilverstein and
If my partner and I were trapped in a safehouse, both bitten, slowly feeling ourselves succumbing to infection, and I were told that the reason this was happening to us was that five years ago some guy adopted some girl as his daughter I would not give even the tiniest shit
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Replying to @arthur_affect @mssilverstein and
If I knew that MILLIONS of people were going through this because of Joel and Ellie and I were a leader responsible for some few dozen of those millions of people I would absolutely want Joel and Ellie to suffer for it, painfully
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Replying to @arthur_affect @mssilverstein and
It's astonishing to say that it would be "selfish" of me not to feel this way
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Replying to @arthur_affect @BootlegGirl and
Yeah - though that's something else altogether, isn't it? What vengeance does everyone else in the world owe against Joel? I'd be pissed, but I wouldn't do anything about it if it had already happened.
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The usual reason to give up on revenge is you have something better to look forward to that you don't want to lose over a grudge "The best revenge is a life well lived" That is, specifically, what Joel has denied everyone else in the world
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Replying to @arthur_affect @BootlegGirl and
Yeah, though I'd also probably fail if I tried anyway, so all I get is being killed by someone else.
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Replying to @mssilverstein @BootlegGirl and
That's where Ellie herself is at the end of the game She gets a taste of the better life she was dreaming of but the guilt makes it turn to ashes in her mouth The only desire she has that keeps her going is to kill or be killed
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