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The left traditionally has been about universal rights, whether the goal was democracy, socialism, communism, w/e... Radical identity politics in the U.S. feels more like a goal in of itself, not a way to achieve a goal.

If a group claims to be too special and can't be understood, rational dialogue breaks down. Only force and violence work. This is self defeating as the groups reason for protesting is that they're the weaker group. They can't win when they position themselves as such.

It's probably why MLK valued the power of reason and non-violence. You could argue that Malcom X's violence was a necessity to contrast King's but it still violates the spirit of King and Mandela.

WG: Identity politics isn't leftist. The first you gotta do is prove how important your identity is that that's a very defensive right wing posture. BLM refuses to acknowledge "All Lives Matter" b/c that's a cliche and the discussion would die out.

Malcolm X said adding cream to coffee was the scary thing. ALM is this cream. No one will disagree w/ it but it'll put a end to the discussion if accepted. This is why BLM must preserve its pure blackness and refuses to be diluted by cream.

Zizek once said "be wary of fake friends as well as enemies". Today's BLM has many fake friends. They stick the ALM band-aid over the wound opened up by Floyd's death. ALM is the opposite of BLM.

Still, b/c the coffee is too black its flavor is too strong. Who knows how many in the silent majority are put off by BLM or refuse to have it pushed down their throats. The angry BLM protestors refuse to see this. There's no room for compromise or moving forward together.

Is society *really* ready to abolish the police?

LQ: Yep. It's like during COVID if you were saving the elderly and someone shouted All Lives Matter! Still, I worry BLMs radicalism will harm broader cross-racial unity.

Iris Young once noted that movements based on universal rights were too abstract and can't triage critical issues. True, but identity movement must still remain open to universal principles.

Chantal Mouffe argues that that black movement, women's rights, etc.. should join together to achieve the universal goal of freedom and equality for all. If BLM abandons universal principles it will lack basic arguments of legitimacy

Moderator: Identity politics has fragmented the entire political community. A political community can have a plurality of politics but must share a common political culture.

America was initially Anglo-saxon protestant. But as more races and ethnic groups multiplied its national identity is multi-racial, mult-ethnic, resulting the separation of cultural politics and political culture.

Identity politics must constrain itself as if its fragmentation breaks the common political culture holding all the diversity together then America will fall apart.

BT: I feel identity politics is dangerous. It always argues for the small group over the large, claiming any imposition as authoritarianism. Yet any country that spends all its time stressing identities and opposing national identity will inevitably end up divided.

To return to BLM, the problems blacks face are nowadays mostly economical. High black unemployment leads to high black crime, mistreatment by law enforcement naturally goes up, etc.. The problems are rooted in slave history but the problem NOW is economical, not identity.

The solutions aren't going to be based on race. If this isn't understood, the problems not only will not be solved, but may get worse. E.g. affirmative action helps the black middle and upper-middle classes. This makes it feel unfair to white middle and upper-middle families.

This can exacerbate racial tensions but most importantly the black people who need help (the poor) receive no help. It's trying to treat an economic problem wrapped in racial symbolism as a purely racial problem.

New topic: The Coming Election in America and Black Lives Matter

Moderator: In the last election, Trump's slogan was to MAGA and make american manufacturing great again, culminating in a win w/ support from the working class in 4 swing states.

With the current anti-racist movement, the democrats have started to play the card of identity politics but Trump has adopted a position tough on BLM. What do you 3 think the impact will be of this movement on the election?

LQ: I've been thinking his chances are slim. In the 1960's the US saw violent protests as well and Nixon won w/ the slogan "law and order". It was surprising since there were anti-war protests in major cities. The 'forgotten people' not seen at the protests were voting for Nixon

Identity politics is a dangerous game that can be played by your opponent. In 2016, Trump made use of the power of white identity politics via the KKK. The current BLM movement has also seen moments of violence and destruction which can turn off sympathizers.

The question is how the current movement will make the middle voters lean. A mix of things have happened so it's hard to say if it helps or hurts Trump's chances.

Moderator: I agree, I suspect a split in the GOP with some announcing a split w/ Trump either due to coronavirus or handling of BLM. He will probably have trouble taking advantage of the movement.

LQ: I'd add that there has always been a Never Trump faction in the GOP. They launched the lincoln project to oppose his reelection. Trump doesn't really have any part identification and never relied on the support of GOP party elders. His power lies in his electoral base.

WG: We see the democrats working hard to use BLM to win black votes but also worry the movement will get out of hand pushing middle voters to republicans.

Trump is always ready to change tactics and doesn't care about support from the middle. Similar to Sanders he relies on voters who identify with him via a make-or-break strategy.

So I agree with LQ that BLM will not necessarily hurt Trump. The typical democratic strategy of appealing to both left and right not might work well in the current moment. Looking indecisive may cost them voters in the middle.

Also, for a lot of voters in bad shape, Trump is sort of a father figure. In his rhetoric he speaks for the oppressed and the mistreated. He might not be perfect, but has self confidence and a sense of commitment. With intensifying conflict, he speaks to their psychological needs