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What happened is that the story spread and created the movement before the facts could catch up. So instead of a movement against indiscriminate killings, it's now about race and is exacerbating inter-ethnic tensions.

WG: To follow up on what LQ said about stereotypes, even black people see other black people.

LQ: To clarify, I think that systemic racism is still widespread in the U.S., but its expression is complex. Darker skinned people are more likely to be questioned and searched for example. There's clear statistical evidence for this unlike for indiscriminate killings.

New topic: Identity politics and anti racism movements

Moderator: In the face of a black man being choked to death, different generations will have different interpretations of this 'truth'.

In the 19th century this would've been an affront to human life and dignity. In the 20th it would have been the oppression of the proletarian underclass by the dogs of the bourgeoisie. In the 21st it's about whites bullying blacks. civic politics -> class politics -> identity pol

When the cold war ended and strong ideology faded, class and citizen politics faded away as well. The left wing movement began turning into identity politics that stressed cultural identities. feminism, gay liberation, racial equality, etc...

Michael Hechter says that democratic systems are about minorities vying for the same rights as the orthodox majority. In essence, identity politics are about rights. What do you 3 think about this?

LQ: Well.. Martin Luther King led his movement based on universal rights, not specific identities. If you believed that everyone should be judged by the same standards, 60 yrs ago you'd be radical, 30 yrs ago you'd be liberal, and today you'd be racist (MLK included!)

If the demands of a group are not universal but specific to the group identity, it increases unity within the group but loses outside allies.

Though also, I don't think universalism and particularism are necessarily in conflict if particularism is used to achieve the principle of universality. It'd be weird though. I can't not see the color of ur skin, only pretend to not see it.

Radical identity politics goes further, arguing that the past was so bad that universal rights doesn't make up for it and that outsiders can't comprehend how bad it was. These claims can be politically dangerous b/c they absolutize conflict and make it perpetual.

The left traditionally has been about universal rights, whether the goal was democracy, socialism, communism, w/e... Radical identity politics in the U.S. feels more like a goal in of itself, not a way to achieve a goal.

If a group claims to be too special and can't be understood, rational dialogue breaks down. Only force and violence work. This is self defeating as the groups reason for protesting is that they're the weaker group. They can't win when they position themselves as such.

It's probably why MLK valued the power of reason and non-violence. You could argue that Malcom X's violence was a necessity to contrast King's but it still violates the spirit of King and Mandela.

WG: Identity politics isn't leftist. The first you gotta do is prove how important your identity is that that's a very defensive right wing posture. BLM refuses to acknowledge "All Lives Matter" b/c that's a cliche and the discussion would die out.

Malcolm X said adding cream to coffee was the scary thing. ALM is this cream. No one will disagree w/ it but it'll put a end to the discussion if accepted. This is why BLM must preserve its pure blackness and refuses to be diluted by cream.

Zizek once said "be wary of fake friends as well as enemies". Today's BLM has many fake friends. They stick the ALM band-aid over the wound opened up by Floyd's death. ALM is the opposite of BLM.

Still, b/c the coffee is too black its flavor is too strong. Who knows how many in the silent majority are put off by BLM or refuse to have it pushed down their throats. The angry BLM protestors refuse to see this. There's no room for compromise or moving forward together.

Is society *really* ready to abolish the police?

LQ: Yep. It's like during COVID if you were saving the elderly and someone shouted All Lives Matter! Still, I worry BLMs radicalism will harm broader cross-racial unity.

Iris Young once noted that movements based on universal rights were too abstract and can't triage critical issues. True, but identity movement must still remain open to universal principles.

Chantal Mouffe argues that that black movement, women's rights, etc.. should join together to achieve the universal goal of freedom and equality for all. If BLM abandons universal principles it will lack basic arguments of legitimacy

Moderator: Identity politics has fragmented the entire political community. A political community can have a plurality of politics but must share a common political culture.

America was initially Anglo-saxon protestant. But as more races and ethnic groups multiplied its national identity is multi-racial, mult-ethnic, resulting the separation of cultural politics and political culture.

Identity politics must constrain itself as if its fragmentation breaks the common political culture holding all the diversity together then America will fall apart.

BT: I feel identity politics is dangerous. It always argues for the small group over the large, claiming any imposition as authoritarianism. Yet any country that spends all its time stressing identities and opposing national identity will inevitably end up divided.

To return to BLM, the problems blacks face are nowadays mostly economical. High black unemployment leads to high black crime, mistreatment by law enforcement naturally goes up, etc.. The problems are rooted in slave history but the problem NOW is economical, not identity.

The solutions aren't going to be based on race. If this isn't understood, the problems not only will not be solved, but may get worse. E.g. affirmative action helps the black middle and upper-middle classes. This makes it feel unfair to white middle and upper-middle families.

This can exacerbate racial tensions but most importantly the black people who need help (the poor) receive no help. It's trying to treat an economic problem wrapped in racial symbolism as a purely racial problem.