threading from https://twitter.com/_rdgao/status/1068214736045522945 …
(@NeuroBill @MillerLabMIT @scottrcole @neurograce)
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Are oscillations and LFPs epiphenomenal? Are spikes epiphenomenal? Am I epiphenomenal? Consolidating a continued debate.http://www.rdgao.com/epiphenomenal-oscillations/ …
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Thanks. Twitter will use this to make your timeline better. UndoUndo
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all the tweet responses are continuously collated/updated here: https://github.com/rdgao/rdgao.github.io/issues/4 … feel free to add issues directly. Will at some point be consolidated and added to the blog post as an addendum.
Show this threadThanks. Twitter will use this to make your timeline better. UndoUndo
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whoa, scientific debate using github issues? this is next-level stuff
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F-ing brilliant. We tossed around the idea of doing this for our TVC paper, really cool to see it implemented.
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laziness is the mother of all inventions?
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(refering to my lack of actual commenting system on the blog haha)
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Nice blog post. Discussion on circular causality in Synergetics (Haken) and Kuramoto model may also be relevant
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thanks! Did you have any specific thoughts in mind regarding synergetics? (I'm not well-versed in that) Would be great to add as an addendum.
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You describe that spikes and oscillations are both a cause and an effect: spikes likely contribute to oscillations in LFP and spike times are likely influenced by ILP oscillations, e.g. through ephaptic coupling.
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Haken describes how high-dimensional systems (like spiking neuron populations) can become enslaved (see slaving principle) by order parameters and show low-dimensional dynamics (like oscillations).
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Because the interaction between individual parts enables the existence of order parameters that in turn determine the behavior of the individual parts, one speaks of circular causality: http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Synergetics …
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This principle lies at the heart of the Kuramoto model, which can be used to model cortical oscillations, see e.g.https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2010.00190/full …
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ahh I see. Yeah I'm familiar with this idea, esp in the context of the circular interaction between spikes and aggregate field, but I didn't know that's what synergetics meant. Thanks for the primer & refs, I'll add to the blog post!
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I'm sure that will help ( ;) ): in haos theory, dynamical systems and network analysis it's an emergent efect of different scales
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Really nice @rdgao! Our opinion/review is that the issue of oscillations in neural coding can be understood in both a "strong" (i.e. the code) or "weak" (i.e. readout of brain state) sense, either of which is informative for understanding perception/memoryhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4329113/ …
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whoa not sure how I missed this. thanks for the ref! and exactly, either way, it's worth looking at.
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Oscillations and spike-as-signal concept are, indeed, at odds. But you're wrong that "spikes have been good to us in the last 100 years;" the concept's just resulted in irreproducibility.https://mythsofvisionscience.wordpress.com/2018/05/17/signal-detection-pseudoscience-in-neuroscience-bondy-haefner-and-cumming-2018-point-1a-orientation-tuning/ …
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huh. I was just repeating the party line but this is some shit. Thanks for the share, gonna add it to the blog post.
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Thanx 4 being interested. Detector notion is kept alive through p-hacking https://mythsofvisionscience.wordpress.com/2018/10/19/contemporary-neuroscience-depends-on-outright-p-hacking-dipoppa-ranson-krumin-pachitariu-carandini-harris-2018/ … and irreproducible resultshttps://mythsofvisionscience.wordpress.com/2018/12/02/it-is-bullshit-none-of-it-replicates/ …
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while a little pessimistic even for my taste, these are all existential thoughts I've struggled with myself, and doing better/making improvements is the hard part...thanks again! this is your blog?
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Post-reply, I was afraid that might be the case. But the issues aren't that existential, because we can actually look at what has worked in the past, and what is or isn't expected to work in principle. Yes, it's my blog.
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You should read Juarrero's "Dynamics in Action" or Deacon's "Incomplete Nature" (which reiterated Juarrero's original ideas) to see why machine metaphors (including computational logic) can't work for complex dynamic self-organizing systems.
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Currently reading Deacon. I didn't know about the other book, thanks for mentioning this. I need to find that :)
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I read Deacon first too; he evidently knew about her work and borrowed heavily, but didn't cite. She complained to Berkeley but was never really vindicated. http://theterrydeaconaffair.com/
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