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The idea that leaving or remaining from an anti-left trading bloc that's about to collapse anyway, in an economy about to collapse anyway, has a determinant influence on UK material conditions over & above the difference between collapsing neoliberalism or ecosocdem is absurd.

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James Melville

@JamesMelville

Dec 28, 2018

Jeremy Corbyn wants to end austerity, protect jobs, improve the lives of the poor and vulnerable. I admire him for that. But this becomes an impossible task after Brexit - as jobs are at risk and the poor and vulnerable will be hit hardest. I wish he could see this juxtaposition.

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On what timescale? There have been collapses to last centuries and collapses to last days. I don't think it's a given that we're in for "days" this time. Rather the opposite.

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So we're probably looking at a couple of decades for collapse, as opposed to the couple of centuries it took the Roman Empire.

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Yes, fair enough as a conjecture. So in that timescale, leaving the EU is enough to do serious damage to many people. There are other reasons to think it should be done, but I think it's pretty clear it's not value-neutral. It was designed to be punishing, and all that.

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Ideally, we would remain and reform. But I see no hope for the EU to reform. It has to go left to avoid disaster, it works by consensus, & it now include fascists. The time for reform was the fall of the Soviet Union. At the latest, 2008. UK as outside example could do good.

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Yeah, well, for me the main appeal of Brexit is it's more likely to force structural change in the EU than remaining. Remaining is a proof of concept for the treaty elements, as Greece was for the Eurozone. That these "proofs" kill and impoverish citizens doesn't bother them.

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Conversely, the UK leaving would be partial proof that the system doesn't work (for the EU power base, i.e. what they care about), and that something has to change lest others simply follow. That is, of course, unless the UK is also run into the ground in the process...

11:25 AM · Dec 28, 2018Twitter Web Client

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Either we act as a lesson or a warning if we leave, and either way it's potentially good for the EU. Either the SocDem reforms inspire the left and force the EU to follow, or we follow the US into fascism amid acrimony and force a wedge between the EU and the neoliberal core.