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TheKanter's profile
David Kanter
David Kanter
David Kanter
@TheKanter

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David Kanter

@TheKanter

San Francisco
realworldtech.com
Joined November 2009

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    1. David Schor‏ @david_schor Sep 22
      Replying to @witeken @semiDL

      You are cherry picking. In 2008/9 they were acquired by Lockheed Martin. They have commercial applications out *ALREADY*, as noted in the article. The "new" company is the commercial front. Fujitsu has been working on taking it to mass production next year. Few others will follow

      3 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
    2. witeken‏ @witeken Sep 22
      Replying to @david_schor @semiDL

      Reading the article, to me this seems like a DRAM replacement, not at all a universal memory or MCS. We'll see how they do once they get a product to market and yes, reading the article you changed my mind and it does seem they should be able to do that, so it looks interesting.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    3. David Schor‏ @david_schor Sep 22
      Replying to @witeken @semiDL

      Right now is the critical stage. Everything is done on their end (including the DDR4 replacement, that's all done, currently working the supply chain logistics). It's up to their licensees to bring it to market when ready. As usual, it's the final product that ships that matters.

      2 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
    4. David Schor‏ @david_schor Sep 22
      Replying to @david_schor @witeken @semiDL

      It's very close to "universal" because they can cover almost the entire spectrum (at least in theory) all the way from L3 cache to DRAM to Flash (in theory, their initial research into multi-level NRAM cells built as a function of the pulse might get to flash-level of density).

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    5. witeken‏ @witeken Sep 22
      Replying to @david_schor @semiDL

      Then in theory 3DXP is just as much a universal memory.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. David Schor‏ @david_schor Sep 22
      Replying to @witeken @semiDL

      How? They can't meet the JEDEC specs to be a DDR4/5 *drop-in* replacement down to every performance requirement - including latency. NRAM is actually faster.

      2 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
    7. witeken‏ @witeken Sep 22
      Replying to @david_schor @semiDL

      That's why I said in theory. Thanks for reading my tweet so carefully.https://www.extremetech.com/computing/233691-phase-change-memory-can-operate-thousands-of-times-faster-than-current-ram …

      3 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    8. Mux‏ @rs_mux Sep 22
      Replying to @witeken @david_schor @semiDL

      Night&day difference. Devil is in the details. 3DXP already starts with an endurance disadvantage requiring lots of research & a lot of money in order to improve. And there are no guarantees. NRAM starts with an endurance advantage. There are currently no known wearout failures.

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    9. David Kanter‏ @TheKanter Sep 22
      Replying to @rs_mux @witeken and

      The devil here is manufacturability and yield. And we know nothing about those particularly details.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    10. David Schor‏ @david_schor Sep 22
      Replying to @TheKanter @rs_mux and

      Manufacturability is more or less identical to a photoresist coating except for the fact that it stays unlike your usual sacrificial layers. For their 16 Gb die, they said they have a lot of spare tiles for redundancy just in case on top of ECC. Only mass production will tell.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
      David Kanter‏ @TheKanter Sep 22
      Replying to @david_schor @rs_mux and

      Manufacturability refers to the whole chip and all flows. Integration of new materials is often very challenging.

      6:53 PM - 22 Sep 2018
      • 2 Likes
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      3 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Tapa Ghosh‏ @semiDL Sep 22
          Replying to @TheKanter @david_schor and

          If you mean the containment of CNTs in a cleanroom to prevent contamination, skywater has already shown this to be possible

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Mux‏ @rs_mux Sep 22
          Replying to @semiDL @TheKanter and

          They said at HC they already manufactured 10s of 1000s of NRAM dies. I'm sure they understand the manufacturing problems involved.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. David Kanter‏ @TheKanter Sep 23
          Replying to @rs_mux @semiDL and

          One could say the same thing of Intel’s 10nm process. The road to high volume isn’t easy, especially when new materials or structures are involved.

          1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
        5. Mux‏ @rs_mux Sep 23
          Replying to @TheKanter @semiDL and

          Very true.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        6. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Moshe Dolejsi‏ @lasserith Sep 22
          Replying to @TheKanter @david_schor and

          So the idea is the entire layer is cnt? Not just cnt in cells? How do they planarize? How do you contact through cnt? How do they do top contacts? Like do you etch stop in the cnt and if so how does the oxidized cnt effect things? Just potential integration challenges

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Moshe Dolejsi‏ @lasserith Sep 22
          Replying to @lasserith @TheKanter and

          Per this it looks like they just fill the cells with nanotubes but the rest of the layer is dielectric. How do they remove the excess CNT from the top of the dielectric outside the cell. It can't be a CMP. I'm sure they figured it out but how? https://fuse.wikichip.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/nram-scaling.png …

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. Tapa Ghosh‏ @semiDL Sep 22
          Replying to @lasserith @TheKanter and

          Why not CMP?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Moshe Dolejsi‏ @lasserith Sep 22
          Replying to @semiDL @TheKanter and

          Carbon nanotubes are like barely cooked spaghetti. CMP is a rotary sander. What happens if you rotary sand barely cooked spaghetti? I'd guess you'd get a lot of tearing as you rip out tubes causing a lot of voids and pretty low yields. Organic stuff is pretty soft for CMP..

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        6. Mux‏ @rs_mux Sep 22
          Replying to @lasserith @semiDL and

          It's way less dense but they use off-the-shelf standard coating tools you can find in any fab (looks like CMP to me). It boils down to fine process controls and experience working with the mixture.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        7. Moshe Dolejsi‏ @lasserith Sep 22
          Replying to @rs_mux @semiDL and

          Where do you see it's CMP? I mean if you spincoater any polymer even without high aspect additives over trenches you will get material outside the trenches.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        8. Mux‏ @rs_mux Sep 22
          Replying to @lasserith @semiDL and

          I attended a presentation of theirs a while back (before hot chips) which had a few additional pictures of the flow. IIRC it looked like CMP. Could be wrong though.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        9. Moshe Dolejsi‏ @lasserith Sep 22
          Replying to @rs_mux @semiDL and

          Hmm if you happened to remember when I'd love to see their flow. As I said I'm sure they figure it out but we do a lot of research into polymer thin films so it would be nice to see their approach.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        10. 1 more reply
        1. New conversation
        2. K.H. Chia‏ @chiakokhua Sep 22
          Replying to @TheKanter @david_schor and

          Apologies if this is a dumb question: Does the nanotube slurry actually physically move in operation? If so, does it not create mechanical stress on the electrodes over time?

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. David Schor‏ @david_schor Sep 22
          Replying to @chiakokhua @TheKanter and

          Yes it physically moves in a void that is formed. But only a certain amount of CNTs that were deposited at the bottom of the cell participate in the 'storage'. The rest are fixed to the parameter of the cell which prevent stresses and other materials from permeating into the cell

          1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
        4. K.H. Chia‏ @chiakokhua Sep 22
          Replying to @david_schor @TheKanter and

          Thanks for explaining

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        5. K.H. Chia‏ @chiakokhua Sep 22
          Replying to @chiakokhua @david_schor and

          If this is real, then it potentially renders Samsung, SK and Micron's products obsolete. Why is Nantero content to be a design house??

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        6. Tapa Ghosh‏ @semiDL Sep 22
          Replying to @chiakokhua @david_schor and

          Try pitching a startup that needs 10 billion for a new fab :)

          1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
        7. David Schor‏ @david_schor Sep 22
          Replying to @semiDL @chiakokhua and

          I am ~80% sure their Lockheed Martin acquisition has locked them into this model due to some inter-licensing restriction. But who knows.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        8. K.H. Chia‏ @chiakokhua Sep 22
          Replying to @david_schor @semiDL and

          Isn’t it true that they can pursue a fabless model? At least initially? Besides the TAM is so huge, even raising $10B might not be impossible.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        9. K.H. Chia‏ @chiakokhua Sep 23
          Replying to @chiakokhua @david_schor and

          Or, they can pick one of the DRAM guys for a JV. Similar to what Sandisk did with Toshiba. If it is as good as it looks, they have massive bargaining power.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        10. 2 more replies

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