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TeubenRoald's profile
Roald Teuben
Roald Teuben
Roald Teuben
@TeubenRoald

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Roald Teuben

@TeubenRoald

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Baltimore, MD
Joined July 2017

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    1. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 16
      Replying to @TeubenRoald @0x49fa98

      I'll give it a read!

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Roald Teuben‏ @TeubenRoald Aug 16
      Replying to @simpolism @0x49fa98

      Quote: 'Anything that inhibits, impedes, or prevents this movement toward the Ultimate Complexity is evil. The wonderful thing about this definition of good and evil is that it is both objective and universally acceptable.’

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    3. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 17
      Replying to @TeubenRoald @0x49fa98

      Read a bit, like the same definition as in Asimov's "The Last Question" http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html … Also it's hard to go from moral principles such as that to something like "evil occurred at Rotherham"

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    4. Roald Teuben‏ @TeubenRoald Aug 17
      Replying to @simpolism @0x49fa98

      Yeah it's similar! What makes that bridge of reasoning "hard"?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Roald Teuben‏ @TeubenRoald Aug 17
      Replying to @TeubenRoald @simpolism @0x49fa98

      Maybe "hard" is not what you mean. Asking because the quoted character was crime lord in Bombay. While profiting off other things he banished the porn industry on moral principle. He likely would describe the Rotherham perpetrators as evil w/o difficulty.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 17
      Replying to @TeubenRoald @0x49fa98

      there is no obvious logical argument

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Roald Teuben‏ @TeubenRoald Aug 17
      Replying to @simpolism @0x49fa98

      Rotherham was kind of complex. What's your take on Richard Ramirez?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 17
      Replying to @TeubenRoald @0x49fa98

      I mostly don't see how to get from "universal complexity" to "human life and relations"

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Roald Teuben‏ @TeubenRoald Aug 17
      Replying to @simpolism @0x49fa98

      Something like: Humans are the highest expression of natural complexity, take that as good, so human life and relations should be maintained. Not saying it's precise, but it's good enough to recognize "degeneracy" like child sex abuse.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. 0 HP Lovecraft, Eldritch and Void-Soaked‏ @0x49fa98 Aug 17
      Replying to @TeubenRoald @simpolism

      I don’t know if this works, since I could build Rube Goldberg machines of arbitrary complexity, more complex than any human, and then in this model, they would have more moral value than humans

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Roald Teuben‏ @TeubenRoald Aug 17
      Replying to @0x49fa98 @simpolism

      That's part of why it's imprecise, because complexity is not standardized. How many humans equal one of your Rube Goldberg's? n/a

      12:35 PM - 17 Aug 2018
      • 2 Likes
      • simpolism 0 HP Lovecraft, Eldritch and Void-Soaked
      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 17
          Replying to @TeubenRoald @0x49fa98

          OTOH child sexual abuse seems totally unrelated to universal complexity

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Roald Teuben‏ @TeubenRoald Aug 17
          Replying to @simpolism @0x49fa98

          Inductive reasoning: Sex abuse leads to trauma, addiction, therefore a less a productive society. A meteor might smash Earth in 300 years. Our preparation (survival) may be a function of how much sex abuse went unchecked. Thus, sex abuse is contrary to universal complexity.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Roald Teuben‏ @TeubenRoald Aug 17
          Replying to @TeubenRoald @simpolism @0x49fa98

          Point of my example is that this moral framework can consistently judge what is "evil". Striving for "good" is a matter of accumulating complexity (or technocapital?), the end justifying the means. Competitors and natural cataclysms set the stage; adapt or die.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Roald Teuben‏ @TeubenRoald Aug 17
          Replying to @TeubenRoald @simpolism @0x49fa98

          This puts morality on non-relativistic grounds. In a sense, "god" is the force of natural selection - the final judge, the wages of sin being death.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Roald Teuben‏ @TeubenRoald Aug 17
          Replying to @TeubenRoald @simpolism @0x49fa98

          Complexity/technocapital is then a virtue and the only way to beat the planet's time-limit. Onto the next challenge, requiring more complexity.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 18
          Replying to @TeubenRoald @0x49fa98

          The main flaw I see is defining "complexity". Apparently it's challenging to define rigorously (is it systematic? meta-systematic? mathematical? physical?), and even if we could, there's a subjectivity flaw: how can we know that humans are capable of judging universal complexity?

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        8. Roald Teuben‏ @TeubenRoald Aug 18
          Replying to @simpolism @0x49fa98

          Ultimately it's functional. Players can only model approximately what works. It's like in chess: some moves are better than others but only victory is definitively "good".

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        9. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 18
          Replying to @TeubenRoald @0x49fa98

          I'm no game theorist, but isn't chess a finite game, while "the universe" is an infinite game, so the metaphor kinda explodes, unless you think about maybe a game of chess with so many pieces that you'll die before you can finish playing.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        10. 2 more replies
        1. Roald Teuben‏ @TeubenRoald Aug 17
          Replying to @TeubenRoald @0x49fa98 @simpolism

          It's for more mundane morality. The guy who applied it was a mob boss. For him, selling passports to war criminals was justified because someone would have done anyway it so better it be him - the guy who bans porn while he's got the power.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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