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There is no way Hbox is winning a 7:3 matchup day in and day out vs all of these foxes lol. He's amazing but not that amazing.

Someone gets it lmao

This is my point exactly! SF players have more experience thinking about grapplers in general. I think we must be wrong about our Puff Fox matchup assessment, so I'm hoping @ultradavid can help me think about/articulate things differently

Hot (lukewarm?) take: since the dawn of time, melee matchup numbers and tier lists have been heavily biased towards offensive options and rarely if ever give defensive options their fair weight. If Fox-Puff is quoted as 7-3, then it's 7-3 offensively (but maybe 4-6 defensively?)

Yeah I like this perspective. At the end of the day the way Melee players talk about matchups has always felt off to me, and I think your insight here could account for a lot of that. Hoping to talk to FGC thinkers because they've been using matchup numbers much longer than us

I see why you see it that way, but the Fgc hasn't had good matchup numbers in a looooong time, and matchups are also far more straight forward than melee matchups, esp since they patch/change games far more often as well so the same development is rare

In general the melee community has never really cared about matchup statistics and real life results, almost only on "what feels more optimal in theory" and never acknowledges ease of use/human error as a real thing for matchups, that the fgc is much better at

I don't disagree with you. fwiw I am expecting to hear some new insightful things, and also that the MU numbers on the other side are also oversimplified and not really any better than ours in the scheme of things