Skoll Shorties

Talking about World of Warcraft.

Yeah, the horde views Doomhammer favorably -because- he redeemed himself and made a change. It doesn't mean he was any less of a villain in wc 1 and 2. He has killed just as many as blackhand with just as little cause.

I mean with that perspective in mind then all of the Horde's Heroes are villains because the Alliance views them as that. Even though they're not. Again this is where things start to get complicated.

The modern horde's heroes aren't viewed as villains by the perspective of the storytelling. The old horde and Dohammer at the time absolutely were. Even the old horde that still exists are still villains in the story's eyes.

Varok Saurfang was apart of the old Horde and yet they did a tremendous job of portraying him not as that. I don't even understand what we're arguing about anymore.

My point here is that from a "this is a story being written out about a world", not from a factional perspective, the horde and Orgrim were villains for the duration of the first and second wars, and actively made th decision to change and become something more than that.

They were the aggressors in a war without cause with the stated goal of global extermination and world domination. It doesn't get more villainous thqn that. But they redeemed themselves and ar now integral heroes of the setting

Villains redeeming themselves and becoming more than that is literally foundational to the warcraft setting