Skoll Shorties

Arthas was a villain for both sides though in the end. You never played as the Scourge (except say for a Deathknight and even then he betrays you too). There's a reason why the Horde as a whole doesn't villainize Orgrim and fews him fondly. Unlike Blackhand or Garrosh, etc.

You play the scourge in WC3.

Talking about World of Warcraft.

Yeah, the horde views Doomhammer favorably -because- he redeemed himself and made a change. It doesn't mean he was any less of a villain in wc 1 and 2. He has killed just as many as blackhand with just as little cause.

I mean with that perspective in mind then all of the Horde's Heroes are villains because the Alliance views them as that. Even though they're not. Again this is where things start to get complicated.

The modern horde's heroes aren't viewed as villains by the perspective of the storytelling. The old horde and Dohammer at the time absolutely were. Even the old horde that still exists are still villains in the story's eyes.

Varok Saurfang was apart of the old Horde and yet they did a tremendous job of portraying him not as that. I don't even understand what we're arguing about anymore.

My point here is that from a "this is a story being written out about a world", not from a factional perspective, the horde and Orgrim were villains for the duration of the first and second wars, and actively made th decision to change and become something more than that.