Getting from “Is” to “Ought” 1/ Let’s assume that there are no ought’s or should’s in this universe. There is only what *is*—the totality of actual (and possible) facts.
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4/ Conscious minds are natural phenomena. Consequently, if we were to learn everything there is to know about physics, chemistry, biology, psychology, economics, etc., we would know everything there is to know about making our corner of the universe suck less.
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5/ If we *should* to do anything in this life, we should avoid what really and truly sucks. (If you consider this question-begging, consult your stove, as above.)
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6/ Of course, we can be confused or mistaken about experience. Something can suck for a while, only to reveal new experiences which don’t suck at all. On these occasions we say, “At first that sucked, but it was worth it!”
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7/ We can also be selfish and shortsighted. Many solutions to our problems are zero-sum (my gain will be your loss). But *better* solutions aren’t. (By what measure of “better”? Fewer things suck.)
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8/ So what is morality? What *ought* sentient beings like ourselves do? Understand how the world works (facts), so that we can avoid what sucks (values).
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Many experiences are fantastic, and I mean they really truly are. For example the experience of gratitude. Try breaking down what gratitude is in physical terms. You miss this with your world view.
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Who said anything about "physical"? Even if gratitude is made of ectoplasm, my argument would be unchanged.
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This is embarrassingly bad.
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Point out the flaws in it.
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You're not getting from facts to values, you're sneaking values in by simply declaring them to be facts. Begging the question.
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Accepting *anything* as a fact entails doing exactly that. As soon as you acknowledge that objective facts exist, you have accepted that an ought may be derived from an is, since (to use Sam's example) there are implied values inherent re: respect for evidence in every fact.
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No, that values are necessary for facts to exist does not lead to facts being sufficient for values
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What else is there?
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Skepticism, moral subjectivism.
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Both traceable to facts.
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Agree w/ 99% of your ideas, but this one I have hard time w/. Yes, some experiences truly suck. If we stop there in our ontology, stating that fact as fact, what truth about the universe do we end up missing?
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A criminal is being tortured in revenge for something. The experience sucks. But not everyone would agree the suck should be made to stop. How do we get from the simple fact of the "suck" to the ought of "you ought to make that stop?" How does the universe corroborate that move?
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When I stop at the "is" of suck, I don't for a second feel I've missed something about the universe. Doesn't mean I won't act on my preference for less suck--especially my own. But to do that I don't need the universe to manifest or corroborate an "objective" ought.
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I find reasoning from an ought tends to yield idealism. It's quite possible to reason from is about improving reality.
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