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RichFelker's profile
Rich Felker
Rich Felker
Rich Felker
@RichFelker

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Rich Felker

@RichFelker

Yeah, I do @musllibc, FOSS & infosec stuff. But now is not the time for a mostly-/only-tech Twitter feed.

musl-libc.org
Joined March 2014

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    1. CopperheadOS‏ @CopperheadOS Mar 24
      Replying to @CopperheadOS @RichFelker @matthew_d_green

      Providing empty data means the apps stop providing the functionality users expect, and the apps can't check to see that the permission is gone to request it from the user. It's a major usability issue. It works for power users, it doesn't work for regular people.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. CopperheadOS‏ @CopperheadOS Mar 24
      Replying to @CopperheadOS @RichFelker @matthew_d_green

      Toggles in an app permissions menu also don't particularly help most people either. Only power users are going to fiddle with disabling as many permissions as possible, and even power users are going to run into issues and forget that it was because they disabled permissions.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. CopperheadOS‏ @CopperheadOS Mar 24
      Replying to @CopperheadOS @RichFelker @matthew_d_green

      It's much more valuable with all dangerous permissions disabled by default like it is for 6.0+. Granting permissions at install time instead of when the app actually needs the functionality was a bad approach. Being able to go into a menu to toggle them off doesn't fix that.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. The Dave!  🤨‏ @TheDaveCA Mar 24
      Replying to @CopperheadOS @RichFelker @matthew_d_green

      Asking at install time is terrible, even if I have granular options I don’t necessarily know why the app wants something. Not everything is intuitive. Asking when it’s needed and telling the user why causes people to think and decide as they go.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. CopperheadOS‏ @CopperheadOS Mar 24
      Replying to @TheDaveCA @RichFelker @matthew_d_green

      Sure, and that's part of why they switched to that model a few years ago. You can toggle off permissions for apps using the legacy permission model and they get provided with empty / zero data but that has awful usability. Users will forget they did it and will hit issues.

      3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. The Dave!  🤨‏ @TheDaveCA Mar 24
      Replying to @CopperheadOS @RichFelker @matthew_d_green

      I’m okay with older apps losing functionality. The OS can provide some warnings too, to help users understand why the app isn’t working if the app is too old to understand. Breaking some older apps is better than leaking everything always.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    7. CopperheadOS‏ @CopperheadOS Mar 24
      Replying to @TheDaveCA @RichFelker @matthew_d_green

      You're describing what they implemented: newer apps use runtime permissions (disabled by default, need to be requested) with proper exceptions. Older apps have toggles enabling empty / fake data and the permissions review mode has users review / toggle before they can run.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. The Dave!  🤨‏ @TheDaveCA Mar 24
      Replying to @CopperheadOS @RichFelker @matthew_d_green

      Great, I’m describing what they did. Why wasn’t it in 2 or 3? Or 4.2 which had it, but hid it so users wouldn’t accidentally get control of their information?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. CopperheadOS‏ @CopperheadOS Mar 24
      Replying to @TheDaveCA @RichFelker @matthew_d_green

      Had that discussion a few times in this thread.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. CopperheadOS‏ @CopperheadOS Mar 24
      Replying to @CopperheadOS @TheDaveCA and

      Being able to toggle off permissions even for legacy apps not supporting a runtime permission model is a feature that's present. However, it has awful usability. Users will toggle off permissions and forget about it. They won't realize why the apps aren't doing what they want.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Rich Felker‏ @RichFelker Mar 24
      Replying to @CopperheadOS @TheDaveCA @matthew_d_green

      You keep saying this. Who cares? Failing safe is the only remotely reasonable behavior here. App not working is no problem. App hideously violating user's privacy is.

      3:39 PM - 24 Mar 2018
      • 1 Like
      • The Dave! 🤨
      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        1. New conversation
        2. CopperheadOS‏ @CopperheadOS Mar 24
          Replying to @RichFelker @TheDaveCA @matthew_d_green

          The user cares. Their apps are broken and they can't figure out why. Not having empathy for users and designing privacy / security features in ways that aren't friendly to them and usable by them is not the way to go.

          3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Rich Felker‏ @RichFelker Mar 24
          Replying to @CopperheadOS @TheDaveCA @matthew_d_green

          You've never presented one plausible example of a behavior a user actually wants breaking when gaping privacy holes are fixed.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. CopperheadOS‏ @CopperheadOS Mar 24
          Replying to @RichFelker @TheDaveCA @matthew_d_green

          We've had years of experience of providing support for an OS taking a much more aggressive approach to privacy and security features. Our users also make much more use of the standard privacy/security features. Are you seriously denying that people regularly hit issues with it?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. CopperheadOS‏ @CopperheadOS Mar 24
          Replying to @CopperheadOS @RichFelker and

          None of you are at all familiar with how it works and don't even seem to have experience *using* a current Android phone, let alone experience working with non-technical people or even just non-programmers / non-cryptographers using this kind of software. :\

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. CopperheadOS‏ @CopperheadOS Mar 24
          Replying to @CopperheadOS @RichFelker and

          It's really silly trying to explain to us how it works or what the pitfalls are when we have a lot of experience with it. Could go on long rants about everything that's wrong with it and what they should be doing but it's not at all what people without experience keep claiming.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. CopperheadOS‏ @CopperheadOS Mar 24
          Replying to @CopperheadOS @RichFelker and

          If you want to talk about garbage privacy how about both Android and iOS granting apps access to sensors without needing any permissions. Can do coarse 100-200Hz audio recording (ML -> detect speech), track movement (ML -> match to routes to find location), etc. with 0 perms.

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        8. CopperheadOS‏ @CopperheadOS Mar 24
          Replying to @CopperheadOS @RichFelker and

          Being able to explicitly grant apps access to get phone state information and SMS/MMS/RCS data has nothing on that. At least that's something you have to very explicitly consent to doing and you can change your mind for future data.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. CopperheadOS‏ @CopperheadOS Mar 24
          Replying to @CopperheadOS @RichFelker and

          Not sure what's hard to understand about the major usability issues of silently blocking stuff with no UI presented when it's happening. It's the #1 support issue that we have to deal with: using silent ad-blocking, disabling root CAs, disabling permissions / apps.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        10. 6 more replies

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