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What is manipulation?
How would you define the term?
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it's hard to pin down "manipulation" (sort of inherently, any explicit signs you look for can themselves be manipulated) and somewhat easier to pin down "being manipulated," i think; the felt experience of having been led somewhere you didn't actually want to go
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So what about leaders?
What about people who use body language/tone -- charisma --
To lead in a way they believe to be in the best interest of those around them?
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the difference between leadership and manipulation is a thing i occasionally call "participation." loosely: is the other person a full participant in whatever's happening or are you deliberately cutting a part of their being off
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People use consent to mean (at least) two things: a tool, and the thing the tool is supposed to accomplish. I think we need different words for the two things, and suggest "consent" for the tool and "participation" for the thing it's for.
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i really like the participation/consent dichotomy, thanks for that! how would cult leaders fit into that?
cult leadership done well seems to get real participation from the followers. it's just that they're participating in something that is probably ultimately bad for them
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and tying back to the original question: cult leaders also seem to be engaging in manipulation, but they are doing it more skillfully than someone who gets consent without participation i think.
i guess what i'm getting at is: can you participate in your own manipulation?
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hmm this is a good question, my gut response is "you always participate in your own manipulation" but that doesn't agree with the use of "participate" that i was just advocating 😅 language man