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What is manipulation?
How would you define the term?
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it's hard to pin down "manipulation" (sort of inherently, any explicit signs you look for can themselves be manipulated) and somewhat easier to pin down "being manipulated," i think; the felt experience of having been led somewhere you didn't actually want to go
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So what about leaders?
What about people who use body language/tone -- charisma --
To lead in a way they believe to be in the best interest of those around them?
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the difference between leadership and manipulation is a thing i occasionally call "participation." loosely: is the other person a full participant in whatever's happening or are you deliberately cutting a part of their being off
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People use consent to mean (at least) two things: a tool, and the thing the tool is supposed to accomplish. I think we need different words for the two things, and suggest "consent" for the tool and "participation" for the thing it's for.
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the analogy to partner dancing is, i think, pretty strong: is the follow being led, and fully participating in co-creating the dance along with the lead, or is the lead jerking the follow around (and cutting off the follow's creativity in how they choose to respond to leads)
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Ah. You subscribe to a way of dancing that I don't really find all that enjoyable.
I prefer taking turns, leading and following.
Each leads, by choosing when to follow. No one is just The Leader, nor just Being Led.
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Hmm. So, consent? I can get down with that.
But what about cases where the leader has willing, consenting followers- but then dies?
Fades from the public eye?
Wouldn't it be best if leaders began working towards helping everyone else become leaders, in their own right?
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sure. everyone has to solve the succession problem and people mostly seem quite bad at it
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i really like the participation/consent dichotomy, thanks for that! how would cult leaders fit into that?
cult leadership done well seems to get real participation from the followers. it's just that they're participating in something that is probably ultimately bad for them
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and tying back to the original question: cult leaders also seem to be engaging in manipulation, but they are doing it more skillfully than someone who gets consent without participation i think.
i guess what i'm getting at is: can you participate in your own manipulation?
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