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Plinz's profile
Joscha Bach
Joscha Bach
Joscha Bach
@Plinz

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Joscha Bach

@Plinz

FOLLOWS YOU. Artificial Intelligence, Cognitive Architectures, Computation. The goal is integrity, not conformity.

San Francisco, CA
bach.ai
Joined April 2009

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    1. Pavel Mayer‏Verified account @pavel23 19 Jan 2018
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      I came myself to the same conclusion that religion serves an important role for a society to function, you just can't get rid of it without leaving a dangerous vacuum that gets filled by something worse, and we probably can't design something better from scratch to replace it. /1

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    2. Pavel Mayer‏Verified account @pavel23 19 Jan 2018
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      Replying to @pavel23 @Plinz

      On the other hand, at their core most religions are fundamentally incompatible with rationalism and partially with humanism, but I can envision ways for a better co-existence, for example by allowing for a less literal and more metaphorical interpretation of the image of God. /2

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Pavel Mayer‏Verified account @pavel23 19 Jan 2018
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      I think I have to read his first book to see what he proposes. One problem seems to be our religions are failing to keep societies together. They also seem not sophisticated enough and don't provide adequate programming of humans for a healthy existence in a modern society. /3

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    4. Pavel Mayer‏Verified account @pavel23 19 Jan 2018
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      However, current religions have survived in harsh environments for a very long time and spread to billions of brains, so evolving existing religions might be much easier than replacing them with something different. It might not be perfect, but could be the only feasible way. 4/4

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    5. Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz 19 Jan 2018
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      Replying to @pavel23

      The reasons why the existing religions are no longer tools for organizing social order is that they already were replaced with something more successful. Religious order kept us stable after the fall of the Roman Empire, but always below 400M people. I don't think we can go back.

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    6. Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz 19 Jan 2018
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      Religions have issues: they destroy epistemology and impair rationalism, they are either totalitarian or toothless when it comes to implementing order, the admin needs to be intransparent (corruption!), and they establish acceptance criteria that not the nicest religion might win

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    7. Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz 19 Jan 2018
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      Replying to @Plinz @pavel23

      Conversely, rationalism allows to define universal criteria for truth, and norms based on consequentialism, with a society that can in principle openly negotiate about preferred consequences, especially once you build an independent death star that incentivizes against violence.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Pavel Mayer‏Verified account @pavel23 19 Jan 2018
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      The problem is, people aren't very good at being rational. We are not Vulcans. We use our higher brain functions mainly to rationalize our emotional decisions. And I have doubts about universal truth, given the mess with all those variable meaning functions in the brain. /1

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    9. Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz 19 Jan 2018
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      Replying to @pavel23

      No, some people are very good at being rational, and other people are very good at accepting programming, and while there is some commutation between the groups, they seem to be quite distinct.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Pavel Mayer‏Verified account @pavel23 19 Jan 2018
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      You said in one of your CCC talks that our brain states evolve in landscapes where we might find ourselves in different valleys. Rationality also is not a well defined concept. Real people are not utility-maximizing agents, and couldn't agree on a utility function if they were.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz 19 Jan 2018
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      Replying to @pavel23

      Rationality does by itself not imply values, other than a pragmatically justified commitment to truth for the process itself. But once we make our preferences explicit, we can use rationality to negotiate.

      12:56 PM - 19 Jan 2018
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        2. Pavel Mayer‏Verified account @pavel23 19 Jan 2018
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          I am afraid we have to establish a common meaning for what you mean with "truth for process". Absence of intentional deception? Best effort? Peterson speaks about how hard and tedious it can be for people to find out what they really want and need. People's minds are messy.

          3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz 19 Jan 2018
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          Replying to @pavel23

          I think of government as both an agent to impose offsets on the local incentives of its subjects, to make their local Nash equilibria compatible with an improved global outcome, and a platform to negotiate preferred outcomes and conflicts between these preferences.

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        2. Pavel Mayer‏Verified account @pavel23 19 Jan 2018
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          Replying to @Plinz

          In the largest philosophical encyclopedia I know ( https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historisches_W%C3%B6rterbuch_der_Philosophie … ) I once looked up "Wahrheit", and it had the longest entry of all terms in those twelve volumes. Already the German and English Wikipedia articles show how multi-faceted the concept of truth is.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Pavel Mayer‏Verified account @pavel23 19 Jan 2018
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          Replying to @pavel23 @Plinz

          When I dived deeper into Philosophy a few years ago in search of a firm foundation for my political activities. I found myself swimming in a sea of totally different ways to look at the world. No firm ground there. You have to choose the models of thought that appeal to you.

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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