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Plinz's profile
Joscha Bach
Joscha Bach
Joscha Bach
@Plinz

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Joscha Bach

@Plinz

FOLLOWS YOU. Artificial Intelligence, Cognitive Architectures, Computation. The goal is integrity, not conformity.

San Francisco, CA
bach.ai
Joined April 2009

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    1. Carlos E. Perez‏ @IntuitMachine 8 Jan 2018
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      Replying to @GaryMarcus @Plinz

      I don't get why your tweet is clearer than your paper? I mean, why do you have to "implicitly say no" when you can "explicitly say so". In short, you are hedging. Your argument amount "symbol-manipulating" primitives is of course wrong.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Carlos E. Perez‏ @IntuitMachine 8 Jan 2018
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      Replying to @IntuitMachine @GaryMarcus @Plinz

      An Intuition Machine does not need "symbol manipulating primitives". Does AlphaZero have a "symbol manipulating primitive" when it demolished the hand crafted Stockfish logic engine? https://medium.com/intuitionmachine/alphazero-how-intuition-demolished-logic-66a4841e6810 … #deeplearning #ai

      1 reply 1 retweet 1 like
    3. Brad Wyble‏ @bradpwyble 8 Jan 2018
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      Replying to @IntuitMachine @GaryMarcus @Plinz

      But that's a well-defined, and discrete state space with a clear objective function. It's possible that such simple domains don't benefit from symbolic reasoning.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Carlos E. Perez‏ @IntuitMachine 8 Jan 2018
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      Replying to @bradpwyble @GaryMarcus @Plinz

      A caveman's environment doesn't require symbolic reasoning. So how can @GaryMarcus claim that such primitives exist as a consequence of evolution? Homo sapiens haven't existed long enough to have evolved a computer embedded in their brain.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Brad Wyble‏ @bradpwyble 8 Jan 2018
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      Replying to @IntuitMachine @GaryMarcus @Plinz

      How do you know that cavemen didn't use something like symbolic structures? My guess is symbolic thought preceded language, otherwise one needs a strong Whorfian perspective.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Carlos E. Perez‏ @IntuitMachine 8 Jan 2018
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      Replying to @bradpwyble @GaryMarcus @Plinz

      Symbolic reasoning at the very least will require an ability to reason about sequences. DL systems like RNNs are able to handle sequences. Interestingly enough, CNNs are also able to do this quite well. You don't need task specific primitives to perform a task.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    7. Brad Wyble‏ @bradpwyble 8 Jan 2018
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      Replying to @IntuitMachine @GaryMarcus @Plinz

      I don't quite follow the argument you're making here, which seems to be, CNN's can do sequencing, therefore they can do the entire class of symbolic reasoning. Is that right? In any case, I'm not as confident as you seem to be that this issue is a non issue.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Carlos E. Perez‏ @IntuitMachine 8 Jan 2018
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      Replying to @bradpwyble @GaryMarcus @Plinz

      Yes, that is the argument. These networks are general enough that they can be repurposed for different tasks. Will they be as efficient as hand engineered algorithms, not every time. At best you can make an argument about being efficiency. You can't argue that it won't work.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Brad Wyble‏ @bradpwyble 8 Jan 2018
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      Replying to @IntuitMachine @GaryMarcus @Plinz

      Sure but I think that efficiency is the key argument when dealing with v. high dimensional, continuous spaces.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Carlos E. Perez‏ @IntuitMachine 8 Jan 2018
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      Replying to @bradpwyble @GaryMarcus @Plinz

      Well you would think that hand crafted algorithms are better than machine crafted algorithms in searching high dimensional spaces. Unfortunately, there is plenty of evidence that you can meta-learn better algorithms. I think everyone is ignoring the evidence that is out there.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz 8 Jan 2018
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      Replying to @IntuitMachine @bradpwyble @GaryMarcus

      A handcrafted algorithm is usually the result of a search process in a space with a few thousand dimensions. Why anyone would think that people will continue to outperform machines at this is beyond me.

      5:36 PM - 8 Jan 2018 from Neighborhood 9, Cambridge
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        2. Brad Wyble‏ @bradpwyble 8 Jan 2018
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          Replying to @Plinz @IntuitMachine @GaryMarcus

          This discussion keeps devolving to man vs machine, which is not really the point. Marcus didn't say or even imply that we should abandon automated tools, but was rather suggesting we broaden our toolkit to involve other kinds of computation.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz 8 Jan 2018
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          Replying to @bradpwyble @IntuitMachine @GaryMarcus

          That was not my point at all. I just think that symbolic AI was doomed mostly because it made too narrow assumptions about the nature of reasoning. We have to move to a more general modeling layer and let machines learn how to reason instead of trying to handcraft it again.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
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