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Plinz's profile
Joscha Bach
Joscha Bach
Joscha Bach
@Plinz

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Joscha Bach

@Plinz

FOLLOWS YOU. Artificial Intelligence, Cognitive Architectures, Computation. The goal is integrity, not conformity.

San Francisco, CA
bach.ai
Joined April 2009

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    1. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness Mar 10
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      🎙 Robert Kegan explaining his adult developmental theory, with @dthorson “If you want to be Stage 5 because all the cool kids are, that’s a Stage 3 aspiration. If you want it because Stage 5 is the Correct way of thinking, that’s a Stage 4 aspiration.”https://anchor.fm/emerge/episodes/Robert-Kegan---The-Five-Stages-of-Adult-Development-And-Why-You-Probably-Arent-Stage-5-eb8gug …

      11 replies 21 retweets 202 likes
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    2. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness Mar 10
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      Daniel asked Kegan about his claim that no one reaches Stage 5 before age 40. Kegan said that’s what’s in the data from their measurement process: zero cases. This is somewhat puzzling…

      2 replies 0 retweets 23 likes
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    3. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness Mar 10
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      Other researchers using similar but not identical measures find “meta-systematic cognition,” seemingly analogous to Kegan’s Stage 5 thinking, starting for some in late 20s (partial intellectual understanding of it sometimes starting early 20s). Informally I think I see this too.

      1 reply 0 retweets 22 likes
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    4. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness Mar 10
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      The stuff I write about meta-rationality seems to appeal most to people who are ~28: having worked through the limits of rationalism, with the more complex alternative coming into view on the horizon.

      2 replies 0 retweets 36 likes
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    5. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness Mar 10
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      Why this discrepancy? I can think of quite a few possibilities. However, it’s hard to know, because: As far as I can determine, Kegan and his collaborators have never published their empirical work, much less made data available.

      2 replies 0 retweets 24 likes
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    6. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness Mar 10
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      Their citation chains always eventually root in their SOI Guide, which just has some summary statistics in an appendix. This is a self-published book. Nothing has been peer reviewed. It was written in 1988, and kept private until self-publication in 2011 https://www.amazon.com/dp/1461128803/?tag=meaningness-20 …

      3 replies 0 retweets 19 likes
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    7. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness Mar 10
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      Possible there’s been no serious data collection since the mid-80s, and Kegan’s “not before 40” assertion rests on that single old study. Results might be different 35 years later. Also I see meta-rationality showing up at ~28 in STEM geeks, who were not in his sample afaik.

      3 replies 0 retweets 27 likes
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    8.  🐜 🐻‏ @ultimape Mar 11
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      Replying to @Meaningness

      I really enjoyed https://medium.com/@byrnehobart/the-socially-awkward-social-network-paradox-efc3e3716843 … by @ByrneHobart as a narrative frame for why we may see this strangeness among rationalist STEM types. Seems to match up well with my own experience of social developmental delay, (tho I have no idea what 'stage' I'm in... and don't care)

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    9.  🐜 🐻‏ @ultimape Mar 11
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      Replying to @ultimape @Meaningness

      Would be fun to find out if Kegan's models are off for the same reason why most of social science is off: too much bias among subgroups in the research. So the "WEIRD" effect? https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/07/western-mind-too-weird-study … Suggests it may also be a large part cultural?

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz Mar 11
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      Replying to @ultimape @Meaningness

      I have a nagging suspicion that Kegan's theory is more a psychological and philosophical framework than a model of development

      4:04 PM - 11 Mar 2020
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      • Christian Smith Mimetic Contagion 🐜🐻
      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        1. Christian Smith‏ @Chris_PK_Smith Mar 11
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          Replying to @Plinz @ultimape @Meaningness

          I'd be really interested in hearing you say more about this--I think I agree with you.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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        1.  🐜 🐻‏ @ultimape Mar 11
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          Replying to @Plinz @Meaningness

           🐜 🐻 Retweeted Adam Strandberg

          😹https://twitter.com/The_Lagrangian/status/1019444347945832450 …

           🐜 🐻 added,

          Adam Strandberg @The_Lagrangian
          Since social science experiments are usually only a respectable veneer over the real reasons we believe social theories, failure to replicate is only weak evidence against the theories
          Show this thread
          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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