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Plinz's profile
Joscha Bach
Joscha Bach
Joscha Bach
@Plinz

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Joscha Bach

@Plinz

FOLLOWS YOU. Artificial Intelligence, Cognitive Architectures, Computation. The goal is integrity, not conformity.

San Francisco, CA
bach.ai
Joined April 2009

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    1. Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz 21 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @sir_deenicus @GaryMarcus @ylecun

      I have mentioned the NTM only as a proof of concept (symbolic operations in NN). I don't think anyone but individual cells use a TM design for practical computations.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    2. Gary Marcus‏ @GaryMarcus 21 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @Plinz @sir_deenicus @ylecun

      i talk about universal function approximation vs symbol manipulation in chapter two of algebraic mind; too subtle for twitter, perhaps

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    3. deen-chan‏ @sir_deenicus 21 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @GaryMarcus @Plinz

      If you don't want to buy a book you can also check out http://www.psych.nyu.edu/gary/marcusArticles/Marcus%202013%20treelets%20%5Bproofs%5D.pdf … if you haven't. There are advantages, disadvantages, tradeoffs between explitcitly vs implicitly symbolic, discrete vs continuous and search/sampling vs optimization. Lots of people don't acknowledge

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    4. deen-chan‏ @sir_deenicus 21 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @sir_deenicus @GaryMarcus @Plinz

      And the idea that GOFAI ideas didn't lead anywhere is the biggest myth. Every database, verifier, WaveFunctionCollapse,symbolic algebra,type system, SMT is argument against it. In my case I could write yet another image analogy tool or I can write something that helps teach math

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz 21 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @sir_deenicus @GaryMarcus

      I would not make any such claim. I also don't think that the ML folks deny that we learn how to reason symbolically. The strongest claims I hear are more along the lines that symbolic reasoning happens when the functions we approximate become low dimensional and discrete.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Gary Marcus‏ @GaryMarcus 21 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @Plinz @sir_deenicus

      This simply rewrites history. See for example last sentence of Lecun, Hinton, Bengio in Nature 2015, or Rumelhart and McClelland’s declaration that symbol-manipulation is not essence of human cognition. Or Hinton’s “aeitherial symbols” talk.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz 21 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @GaryMarcus @sir_deenicus

      I don't see this as a contradiction. The essence of human cognition may better be described by the mechanisms that enable perception. I think it may be more plausible to extend perception into symbol manipulation than the other way around.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    8. Gary Marcus‏ @GaryMarcus 21 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @Plinz @sir_deenicus

      ? You said that the ML folks dont deny that we (learn) how to reason symbolically. They do (or did; Yann seemed to backtrack some today).

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz 21 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @GaryMarcus @sir_deenicus

      I thought the difference between your and their position is that they claim that symbolic reasoning is learned, while you seem to suggest that it is innate?

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    10. deen-chan‏ @sir_deenicus 22 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @Plinz @GaryMarcus

      Ah,that's a super reasonable position. I'm towards innate as it seems to have occured only in humans & not again before humans came to dominate. Seems an accounting trick if only human brains can learn this non-innate thing. Some (VWF) areas seem specialized but in general way

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz 23 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @sir_deenicus @GaryMarcus

      The obvious counter argument is that organismic evolution wrt minds constitutes a worst case unprincipled blind algorithm for hyperparameter optimization, which we should be able to outperform in all sorts of ways.

      12:22 AM - 23 Nov 2018 from Davis Square, Somerville
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. deen-chan‏ @sir_deenicus 23 Nov 2018
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          Replying to @Plinz @GaryMarcus

          But this counter is in the wrong direction. It's not about what we can implement but that it seems brains that can recursively handle symbols require particular existing structures. It is not a natural aspect of all brains despite their being (in principle) Turing equivalent

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