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Plinz's profile
Joscha Bach
Joscha Bach
Joscha Bach
@Plinz

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Joscha Bach

@Plinz

FOLLOWS YOU. Artificial Intelligence, Cognitive Architectures, Computation. The goal is integrity, not conformity.

San Francisco, CA
bach.ai
Joined April 2009

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    1. Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz 25 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @SimonDeDeo @MimeticValue and

      A lot of very complex systems have relatively simple transition functions. If you want to argue how to best build a system, you need different arguments than for your much stronger claim that a system can not possibly be built in a particular way.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    2. Simon DeDeo‏ @SimonDeDeo 25 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @Plinz @MimeticValue and

      This is a different argument that the one I was responding to. Your new argument relies on the idea that neuron-level response is "relatively simple". Our best knowledge of the brain suggests that it is, in fact, extremely complex.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    3. Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz 25 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @SimonDeDeo @MimeticValue and

      There exists a wide range of estimates on the effective complexity of brains. Picking the one that supports your nonexistence claim best may mean that you are not maximizing the probability that you are correct.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Simon DeDeo‏ @SimonDeDeo 25 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @Plinz @MimeticValue and

      Assuming you're not denying our best scientific evidence about neuron-level interaction, this seems like yet another argument, that relies upon "effective complexity". Can you tell me what "effective complexity" means?

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz 25 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @SimonDeDeo @MimeticValue and

      Individual neurons are fairly indeterministic. A large part of synaptic connectivity may just serve normalization. Effective complexity comes down to how many neurons we need to allocate, identify, learn and compute a particular function reliably enough.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Simon DeDeo‏ @SimonDeDeo 25 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @Plinz @MimeticValue and

      Your claim is now that (a) the complexity of neuron-level interaction is actually irrelevant to whole brain simulation, and that (b) we can simulate a brain with far fewer neurons than are actually found in humans. Do you have any arguments for this?

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz 25 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @SimonDeDeo @MimeticValue and

      (a) I don’t think that whole brain simulation is the way to go if you use a different computational substrate. (b) Yes, but that is a highly speculative and weak claim on my part, based on the low firing rate and reliability of neurons, and the high price of of random access.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    8. Simon DeDeo‏ @SimonDeDeo 25 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @Plinz @MimeticValue and

      Low reliability: we know from fault-tolerant computation that N unreliable gates can be made reliable with a circuit of only N*log(N). So that can't help.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Simon DeDeo‏ @SimonDeDeo 25 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @SimonDeDeo @Plinz and

      Low firing rate: if we could replace slow-firing neurons with a smaller number of fast ones, we should see our deep learning networks shrinking with clock speed (we don't).

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    10. Simon DeDeo‏ @SimonDeDeo 25 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @SimonDeDeo @Plinz and

      "high price of random access"—not sure what this means. Are you saying that a von Neumann architecture will push us over the edge?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz 25 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @SimonDeDeo @MimeticValue and

      Computer architectures have evolved since the 1960ies, and they will continue to follow whatever computational paradigm we want to pursue. Nervous systems don't have that degree of flexibility: they are constrained to local control, no address space, expensive long-range routing.

      11:17 AM - 25 Jun 2018
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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        2. Simon DeDeo‏ @SimonDeDeo 25 Jun 2018
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          Replying to @Plinz @MimeticValue and

          Your claim is now that non-local control, address spaces, and long-range routing are sufficient to reduce the number of neurons required. Why should we believe this?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz 25 Jun 2018
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          Replying to @SimonDeDeo @MimeticValue and

          If you add constraints on the way functionality can be represented and learned, you will likely lose efficiency (i.e. need more moving parts to achieve the same result). If that is true, then reducing the constraints is going to increase the potential for greater efficiency.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
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