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The light inside is broken, but I still work. The Cadillac of online bookmarking sites. Alleged nocoiner. http://pinboard.in  maciej@ceglowski.com +1 415 610 0231

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    1. Matthew Green‏Verified account @matthew_d_green 16 Jan 2020

      The attack space here isn’t that big. It’s a flaw in the USB stack plus whatever weird stuff lightning does, then presumably some exploit into the SEP. You’d think for a locked iPhone the open SEP and USB attack surface would be very limited.

      4 replies 8 retweets 75 likes
      Show this thread
    2. Nicholas Weaver‏Verified account @ncweaver 16 Jan 2020
      Replying to @matthew_d_green

      The USB attack surface is bigger than you'd think, because you need it for device repair/clean OS reinstall.

      2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    3. Steven M. Bellovin‏Verified account @SteveBellovin 16 Jan 2020
      Replying to @ncweaver @matthew_d_green

      The attack surface of a booted, never-unlocked iPhone is still very high—it can receive calls, SMS messages, etc. Inject something that way, then bang on a flaw in the secure enclave. (But this requires a bootable phone; one with a bullet in it might not be bootable.)

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    4. Matthew Green‏Verified account @matthew_d_green 16 Jan 2020
      Replying to @SteveBellovin @ncweaver

      We know that GrayKey uses Lightning. But the phone attack surface is only the weaker part of the equation. The SEP is supposed to work like an HSM. What does its interface look like prior to user login? It should be dirt simple.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Steven M. Bellovin‏Verified account @SteveBellovin 16 Jan 2020
      Replying to @matthew_d_green @ncweaver

      As @rossjanderson and his colleagues have shown, HSMs aren't nearly as secure as they should be, either.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    6. Matthew Green‏Verified account @matthew_d_green 16 Jan 2020
      Replying to @SteveBellovin @ncweaver @rossjanderson

      Yes but HSMs don’t have one billion deployed instances either, and the largest company in the history of the world throwing resources at them.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Matthew Green‏Verified account @matthew_d_green 16 Jan 2020
      Replying to @matthew_d_green @SteveBellovin and

      I guess my point here is that if Apple can’t make this work, then the HSM concept is fundamentally broken.

      3 replies 2 retweets 5 likes
    8. Nicholas Weaver‏Verified account @ncweaver 16 Jan 2020
      Replying to @matthew_d_green @SteveBellovin @rossjanderson

      "we can't do perfect, its fundamentally broken"?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Matthew Green‏Verified account @matthew_d_green 16 Jan 2020
      Replying to @ncweaver @SteveBellovin @rossjanderson

      The HSM has one job, which is to keep sophisticated attackers from bypassing the core protections offered bythe HSM, and packaging that bypass into a commodity.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    10. Matthew Green‏Verified account @matthew_d_green 16 Jan 2020
      Replying to @matthew_d_green @ncweaver and

      But more fundamentally, it’s based on the idea that somehow if we make the interface small enough, we can reduce attack surface to zero. This seems like a high-profile failure of that idea.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Pinboard‏ @Pinboard 16 Jan 2020
      Replying to @matthew_d_green @ncweaver and

      Maybe building a defect-free HSM in a consumer device is viable but just extraordinarily expensive. The space shuttle avionics were possibly bug free at the price of a ludicrous level of code review and quality control

      10:08 AM - 16 Jan 2020
      • 1 Like
      • Natanael, tech janitor
      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        1. New conversation
        2. Eric Lawrence  🎻‏ @ericlaw 16 Jan 2020
          Replying to @Pinboard @matthew_d_green and

          Nothing is bug free.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Pinboard‏ @Pinboard 16 Jan 2020
          Replying to @ericlaw @matthew_d_green and

          Finite code contains finite bugs

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Show replies
        1. New conversation
        2. Matthew Green‏Verified account @matthew_d_green 16 Jan 2020
          Replying to @Pinboard @ncweaver and

          That may be. My point is that Apple has vastly more resources to deploy on this project than any of the other HSM manufacturers do. Their (continuing) failure here is an important data point.

          1 reply 1 retweet 8 likes
        3. Pinboard‏ @Pinboard 16 Jan 2020
          Replying to @matthew_d_green @ncweaver and

          I think it's an important point. I wish there was a way to distinguish internal Apple politics (you're only allowed to spend X on hardening the HSM) from more fundamental constraints on this design approach.

          1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
        4. Show replies

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