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NickSzabo4's profile
Nick Szabo 🔑
Nick Szabo 🔑
Nick Szabo  🔑
@NickSzabo4

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Nick Szabo  🔑

@NickSzabo4

Blockchain, cryptocurrency, and smart contracts pioneer. (RT/Fav/Follow does not imply endorsement). Blog: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com 

Joined June 2014

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    1. Udi Wertheimer‏ @udiWertheimer Sep 6
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @koeppelmann @SchalkDormehl @ArthurB

      should be possible. But lightning isn’t really the problem here, it’s the solution! First set your coins free into a lightning channel like in step 1, but manage risk and wait for sufficient confirmations. Then you can transact freely and not concern yourself with reorgs!

      4 replies 1 retweet 42 likes
    2. Martin Köppelmann‏ @koeppelmann Sep 6
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @udiWertheimer @SchalkDormehl @ArthurB

      so what is this magic number? "wait for sufficient confirmations" If you can't tell me now how do you expect the average user to know. For years the narrative was that this magic number is 6.

      3 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    3. nic carter‏ @nic__carter Sep 6
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @koeppelmann @udiWertheimer and

      Bitcoin finality isn’t binary. Anyone telling you six is sufficient in all cases is lying. It was a semi arbitrary number Satoshi offhandedly mentioned

      3 replies 1 retweet 60 likes
    4. nic carter‏ @nic__carter Sep 6
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @nic__carter @koeppelmann and

      For casual use 1 or 2 is fine. For large transactions the jury is still out - there is no widespread model. If I were receiving $1b I would probably wait for a few days worth of confs

      4 replies 0 retweets 54 likes
    5. Martin Köppelmann‏ @koeppelmann Sep 6
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @nic__carter @udiWertheimer and

      @NickSzabo4 suggests to wait a few month for $1b.

      4 replies 0 retweets 10 likes
    6. Hasu‏ @hasufl Sep 6
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @koeppelmann @nic__carter and

      A few days should be safe because after that point a reorg causes so much collateral damage that the attacker can't expect the network to converge on his version of the chain. The social layer would definitely reject it.

      2 replies 1 retweet 51 likes
    7. Martin Köppelmann‏ @koeppelmann Sep 6
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @hasufl @nic__carter and

      the attacker can control the size of the collateral damage by simply replaying transactions 1:1 that are not part of the attack.

      2 replies 0 retweets 17 likes
    8. Hasu‏ @hasufl Sep 6
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @koeppelmann @nic__carter and

      I was assuming that already, but he can't replay coinbase transactions. These coins and their ancestors will definitely be destroyed, causing havoc in the network.

      2 replies 0 retweets 24 likes
    9. Martin Köppelmann‏ @koeppelmann Sep 6
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @hasufl @nic__carter and

      those can only be spend 100 blocks after mined. So for a 200 block reorg we are talking about 100*12.5 = 1250 BTC ~$12.500.000 I am aware that IN THEORY those missing UTXOs can block an unlimited amount of total tx. In practice this seems unlikely.

      3 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
    10. Hasu‏ @hasufl Sep 6
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @koeppelmann @nic__carter and

      So you think Bitcoin nodes would accept a reorg more than a couple days deep? The recent Binance incident implies otherwise. There was immediate support, incl. from core devs, to reject that reorg which wasn't even a day deep and not coming from a hostile entity.

      3 replies 0 retweets 19 likes
      Nick Szabo  🔑‏ @NickSzabo4 Sep 6
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @hasufl @koeppelmann and

      At this point one is relying on trusted third parties rather than the protocol. A dangerous thing to do, it cuts into Bitcoin's value prop. Frequent de-reorgs provide another, even easier vector of attack.

      7:07 AM - 6 Sep 2019
      • 11 Likes
      • Zac Mitton Carsten ɃRAJ Udi Wertheimer OmniEdge Linear Trav Martin Köppelmann Joe Kelly
      2 replies 0 retweets 11 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Hasu‏ @hasufl Sep 6
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @NickSzabo4 @koeppelmann and

          Nick, I know you've been away from Twitter for a few months but did you hear about the Binance hack and their idea to bribe miners to take these funds instead (a "scorched earth policy" to reject future theft)? What are your thoughts on that?

          2 replies 0 retweets 8 likes
        3. Udi Wertheimer‏ @udiWertheimer Sep 6
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @hasufl @NickSzabo4 and

          It wasn’t “their idea” and it was knocked down because it was irresponsible to encourage a stressed out CEO to run a $100B experiment with no research

          1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
        4. Hasu‏ @hasufl Sep 6
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @udiWertheimer @NickSzabo4 and

          I agree that it was bad advice, but that's beside the point. You can either think that Bitcoin can (and should) manually reject reorgs of a certain depth, or you can think that reorgs shouldn't be rejected, in which case the good guys can also use them - but probably not both.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        5. Hasu‏ @hasufl Sep 6
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @hasufl @udiWertheimer and

          In case it's not clear I support rejecting deep reorgs and allowing more shallow reorgs (and re-reorgs). What's allowed and what isn't is for the social layer to decide (because *technically*, all reorgs of all colors are allowed.)

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        6. Udi Wertheimer‏ @udiWertheimer Sep 6
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @hasufl @NickSzabo4 and

          I’m not sure if a theoretical reorg would’ve worked but I’m sure that this one wouldn’t have happened. It was proposed many hours into the theft, with zero infrastructure in place for miners to detect the proposed rewards from Binance. It was impractical, yet messy

          3 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
        7. Martin Köppelmann‏ @koeppelmann Sep 6
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @udiWertheimer @hasufl and

          In the same way it would be impractical to counter a sudden attack reorg. The exact same infrastructure would be missing.

          2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        8. Udi Wertheimer‏ @udiWertheimer Sep 6
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @koeppelmann @hasufl and

          Yeah, for a 6-hour reorg. A 2-weeks reorg though?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. Martin Köppelmann‏ @koeppelmann Sep 6
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @udiWertheimer @hasufl and

          Currently I am talking about 24h

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        10. End of conversation
        1. Santosh Kumar‏ @santosh79 Sep 6
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @NickSzabo4 @hasufl and

          This brings up an interesting point Large txns make the entire network unstable for some point of time I like http://crypto51.app  - on a similar line it would be useful for a recipient to know what are the chances that their txn will get reversed (given current ntwrk conds)

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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