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NickSzabo4's profile
Nick Szabo 🔑
Nick Szabo 🔑
Nick Szabo  🔑
@NickSzabo4

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Nick Szabo  🔑

@NickSzabo4

Blockchain, cryptocurrency, and smart contracts pioneer. (RT/Fav/Follow does not imply endorsement). Blog: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com 

Joined June 2014

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    1. Dan Plante‏ @Daniel_Plante Aug 4
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @evoskuil @csentropy and

      My point is that Lightning has programatic assurances. With $GLD, you can try to stand for delivery of the underlying asset. Good luck. With Lightning, the holder can unilaterally force settlement to the underlying asset (Bitcoin) whenever they wish. The network enforces this.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    2. Eric Voskuil‏ @evoskuil Aug 4
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @Daniel_Plante @csentropy and

      https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Risk-Free-Return-Fallacy …

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Eric Voskuil‏ @evoskuil Aug 4
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @evoskuil @Daniel_Plante and

      LN does not cryptographically assure settlement, or that it is not cost prohibitive. Nevertheless, for the money to be *productive* it must be lent to production (invested). There are no cryptographic guarantees in productive lending, despite futile attempts (see link above).

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    4. Nick Szabo  🔑‏ @NickSzabo4 Aug 4
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @evoskuil @Daniel_Plante and

      Nick Szabo  🔑 Retweeted Nick Szabo  🔑

      There are no guarantees, but there are potential ways to substantially reduce vulnerability, for examplehttps://twitter.com/NickSzabo4/status/1145094116121837568 …

      Nick Szabo  🔑 added,

      Nick Szabo  🔑 @NickSzabo4
      Proplets: devices for controlling equipment from a blockchain-based title registry, as smart property: http://fon.hum.uva.nl/rob/Courses/InformationInSpeech/CDROM/Literature/LOTwinterschool2006/szabo.best.vwh.net/proplets.html … pic.twitter.com/9uQWtjWcwu
      1 reply 1 retweet 10 likes
    5. Eric Voskuil‏ @evoskuil Aug 4
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @NickSzabo4 @Daniel_Plante and

      Now that would be a monumental invention - a guarantee of return on investment.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Eric Voskuil‏ @evoskuil Aug 4
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @evoskuil @NickSzabo4 and

      What investment risk (vulnerability) does the diagram suggest is reduced?

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    7. Nick Szabo  🔑‏ @NickSzabo4 Aug 4
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @evoskuil @Daniel_Plante and

      Proplet-controlled equipment could be used as collateral for loans with substantially less trust/vulnerability and repo costs than exist today.

      1 reply 1 retweet 4 likes
    8. Eric Voskuil‏ @evoskuil Aug 4
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @NickSzabo4 @Daniel_Plante and

      A fully-collateralized loan is not a productive loan. It's a trade of property for a period of time, and then a trade back. Only the uncollateralized portion can be considered productive. It's an example of the risk-free return fallacy.https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Risk-Free-Return-Fallacy …

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    9. Nick Szabo  🔑‏ @NickSzabo4 Aug 4
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @evoskuil @Daniel_Plante and

      Trillions of dollars worth of collateralized loans are made every year: mortgages, ship loans, car loans, airplanes, etc. Both sides of each of these apparently think it is productive.

      3 replies 0 retweets 22 likes
    10. Eric Voskuil‏ @evoskuil Aug 4
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @NickSzabo4 @Daniel_Plante and

      You are using a colloquial definition for productivity. Production requires capital that can be spent. Where do you get the capital to collateralize your debt?

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      Nick Szabo  🔑‏ @NickSzabo4 Aug 4
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @evoskuil @Daniel_Plante and

      Collateralized loans are quite often used to fund capital investments in plant, equipment, real estate, etc. I don't know what planet you are living on or what language you are talking in, but until you want to start making sense, muted.

      5:16 PM - 4 Aug 2019
      • 9 Likes
      • Riding Unicorns to the Moon Noodle🛸☣️ lastcoinstanding Dan Hannum JA DREAMiners Saifedean Ammous Dan Hedl Ryan Calder
      1 reply 0 retweets 9 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Eric Voskuil‏ @evoskuil Aug 4
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @NickSzabo4 @Daniel_Plante and

          This is the problem with empirical economics. Observation leads one to false conclusions. If a company that raises investment and uses that money to collateralize a loan, that money is entirely non-productive. All interest earned is offset by that paid.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        3. Eric Voskuil‏ @evoskuil Aug 4
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @evoskuil @NickSzabo4 and

          This is why the interest earned on secured debt is lower than that earned on unsecured debt. The portion that is secured is not earning any interest. Net of all costs of liquidating the collateral, this is a simple formulation, as expressed in the cash collateral scenario above.

          1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
        4. Eric Voskuil‏ @evoskuil Aug 4
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @evoskuil @NickSzabo4 and

          Note that the observation of common use doesn't attempt to refute the statement that the collateralized portion is non-productive.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        5. Eric Voskuil‏ @evoskuil Aug 4
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @evoskuil @NickSzabo4 and

          I spent some time on this today, and I realized that @NickSzabo4 and I are talking past each other. From the comments above it should be clear that I'm talking about collateral as money taken out of productive use, as with a "loan" under covenant (linked above) or a money-cert...

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Eric Voskuil‏ @evoskuil Aug 4
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @evoskuil @NickSzabo4 and

          This because I've time recently refuting these as productive capital (not actually lent). But he is referring to capital that remains in production. And in that case I fully agree, both the loan capital and its collateral are productive. It was my mistake to conflate the two...

          1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
        7. Eric Voskuil‏ @evoskuil Aug 4
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @evoskuil @NickSzabo4 and

          The higher rate on an unsecured loan can only be accounted for by the risk premium. WRT the original question, providing better property registration may in some way reduce risk in lending, but given necessary reliance on custodians and legal systems, it's impossible to evaluate.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        8. Eric Voskuil‏ @evoskuil Aug 4
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @evoskuil @NickSzabo4 and

          As for the "pillar of salt" thing, I'm still trying to figure that out.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. Neil Woodfine‏ @nwoodfine Aug 8
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @evoskuil

          It’s okay, some of us with a strong palate are still sticking around.

          0 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        10. End of conversation

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