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NickSzabo4's profile
Nick Szabo 🔑
Nick Szabo 🔑
Nick Szabo  🔑
@NickSzabo4

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Nick Szabo  🔑

@NickSzabo4

Blockchain, cryptocurrency, and smart contracts pioneer. (RT/Fav/Follow does not imply endorsement). Blog: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com 

Joined June 2014

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    1. Udi Wertheimer‏ @udiWertheimer 17 Aug 2018
      • Report Tweet

      "turing complete is the wrong tool... what our systems do is verification, not computation. This cognitive error confers no advantage, outside of marketing to people with a fuzzy idea of what smart contracts might be good for...” gmaxwell, 2016 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1427885.msg14601127#msg14601127 …

      5 replies 19 retweets 93 likes
      Show this thread
    2. Nick Szabo  🔑‏ @NickSzabo4 17 Aug 2018
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @udiWertheimer

      That take has many problems. 1/almost all biz logic is in P, so that verification is about as expensive as the original computation. 2/in biz logic verification is seldom simpler than the original computation. 3/Turing completeness is largely orthogonal to P vs. NP.

      8 replies 6 retweets 40 likes
    3. Udi Wertheimer‏ @udiWertheimer 18 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @NickSzabo4

      I don’t know if that’s what Greg meant, but from my experience what most people try to do with Ethereum’s “smart contracts” is just adding semantics to multisig. You get the same properties, but get to name the function call. That’s very wasteful, and it’s security theater too

      2 replies 0 retweets 8 likes
    4. Nick Szabo  🔑‏ @NickSzabo4 18 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @udiWertheimer

      No, multisig is very far from the only thing people do.

      2 replies 1 retweet 13 likes
    5. Udi Wertheimer‏ @udiWertheimer 18 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @NickSzabo4

      Well I wouldn’t and didn’t say “only”, but I think that multisig, together with tokenization, is what most people attempt to do with EVM “smart contracts”. What else?

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
      Nick Szabo  🔑‏ @NickSzabo4 18 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @udiWertheimer

      CFDs, derivatives, rule-based pools of money, trust-minimized intermediation of cash flows, tons of things.

      2:30 PM - 18 Aug 2018
      • 4 Retweets
      • 65 Likes
      • Punia Rory Parallel Industries ꙮ 👻 💤 Erik Kim Mircea Burdușa DREAMiners Naval Balaji S. Srinivasan veoex
      3 replies 4 retweets 65 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Udi Wertheimer‏ @udiWertheimer 18 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @NickSzabo4

          Maybe I’m talking to the wrong people. I wish I knew more folks who are interested in using smart contracts for that kind of thing. Usually I find myself walking clients through why smart contracts might not be the best fit for a dating app

          5 replies 0 retweets 14 likes
        3. Nick Szabo  🔑‏ @NickSzabo4 18 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @udiWertheimer

          On this particular topic (in contrast to most others crypto-related), people focused on Bitcoin are definitely the wrong people to talk to. But the Ethereum community is very noisy so it is hard to find the many valuable needles in its haystack.

          2 replies 5 retweets 52 likes
        4. Brendan Bernstein‏ @BMBernstein 18 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @NickSzabo4 @udiWertheimer

          If Turing complete smart contracts could indeed produce value, that still leaves a big question: if it should be on a standalone “Turing complete, decentralize all the things” chain or built on top of a secure, low entropy, immutable sound money (as a sidecchain / other layer)

          3 replies 0 retweets 9 likes
        5. Udi Wertheimer‏ @udiWertheimer 18 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @BMBernstein @NickSzabo4

          Well you’d have to first show us how to build it as a second layer though

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        6. Brendan Bernstein‏ @BMBernstein 18 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @udiWertheimer @NickSzabo4

          There are probably ways to approximate the Turing complete needs without actually being fully Turing complete. Isn’t this the goal of simplicity? But I do think this is one of the most important areas of research

          4 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
        7. Sean Erle Johnson‏ @merehap 19 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @BMBernstein @udiWertheimer @NickSzabo4

          Yes, the goal is literally named Simplicity: https://medium.com/@danrobinson/understanding-simplicity-implementing-a-smart-contract-language-in-30-lines-of-haskell-827521bfeb4d … Simplicity is a non-turing complete smart contract language that (presumably) allows everything that you'd want from a TC language, but statically prevents the footgun scenarios we've seen with Ethereum.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. Nick Szabo  🔑‏ @NickSzabo4 19 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @merehap @BMBernstein @udiWertheimer

          A non-TC language cannot allow everything you might want from a TC language.

          1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
        9. Sean Erle Johnson‏ @merehap 19 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @NickSzabo4 @BMBernstein @udiWertheimer

          Agreed, but how useful are things like infinite looping in a smart contract language? Is there a known list of types of practical smart contracts that can't be accomplished without TC? From my limited understanding each element of the list that you provided could be.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        10. 1 more reply
        1. New conversation
        2. Zack Hess‏ @zack_bitcoin 22 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @NickSzabo4 @udiWertheimer

          Amoveo is optimized for CFDs derivatives and trust-minimized intermediation of ash flows. It moves the computation for these applications off-chain into the lightning network. We need an oracle for these applications. Amoveo has an affordable cryptoeconomically secure oracle.

          1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
        3. Nick Szabo  🔑‏ @NickSzabo4 22 Aug 2018
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @zack_bitcoin @udiWertheimer

          What are the differences in the trust assumptions Amoveo makes in the Lightning computatoins, vs. the trust assumptions Ethereum makes with its on-chain computations?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Zack Hess‏ @zack_bitcoin 22 Aug 2018
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @NickSzabo4 @udiWertheimer

          With channels you need to come online periodically to check that your partner isn't closing at the wrong state. The frequency you have to come online is a variable that is customized for each channel. And you can hire untrusted third parties to prevent this kind of theft.

          0 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
        5. End of conversation
        1. [#librenotlibra]  ♒️ ssfaser  💫‏ @KenKlmc2 18 Aug 2018
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @NickSzabo4 @udiWertheimer

          how about car registration, multsig between insurer, registration authority and person to stop registration authority from deregistering a vehicle without notification rendering insurance invalid and leaving the person unknowingly exposed to unlimited lliability

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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