and getting back to the jetski sound itself, one person doing one thing can pollute an entire bay with the noise. It's 99.99% externality. And there's no data on who does and does not like it. Hear four jetskis? well obviously AT LEAST 4 people like it.
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Replying to @MorlockP @random_eddie
The quiet people don't register. It's the seen and the unseen. So we've constructed a mechanism with no property rights and a mechanism that amplifies the voices of defectors. Get 2 or 3 (or even just 1) grandmother, and, well, the ENTIRE restaurant sounds like loud grandmothr
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Replying to @MorlockP @random_eddie
and your EXACT PROPOSAL was "don't like it? go somewhere else" BUT THEN YOU ARGUED THAT EVERY PLACE IN THAT PRICE TIER GETS TO CONVERGE ON YOUR NORMS so you're doing the jetski thing - the only way to live on the water and not hear jetskis is be a billionaire and own the lake
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Replying to @MorlockP @random_eddie
an appreciation of the fact that norms differ and this is a tricky problem, as opposed to "anyone who doesn't like the sound of jetskis and screaming grandmothers obviously hates joy and SHOULD BE DRIVEN OUT OF EVERY PUBLIC PLACE" would be good
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Replying to @MorlockP
I appreciate the fact that norms differ. (Was that not clear?) I also appreciate that this is a tricky problem.
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Replying to @random_eddie
it was not clear the only think I heard was: * if you want the norms that prevail 95% of the time, spend 3x as much money and don't go to 90% of the restaurants * the reason norms differ is some assholes hate children
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Replying to @MorlockP
Sorry for leaving that impression. Yes, it's tricky. You've had many threads about the issue in the past, grappling towards some resolution. I have a thought here, but it's not a very happy one.
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Replying to @random_eddie @MorlockP
(Set aside for the moment whether the OP's case actually represents differing norms between you and I - I think there's too much ambiguity to know) +
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Replying to @random_eddie @MorlockP
Say that there really was a difference between yours and mine, and that it was a Big Deal. Perhaps it's about loud pipes, perhaps it's about kids on planes where there's less room for compromise. +
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Replying to @random_eddie @MorlockP
I think in some circumstances, the only option is separation, and if that's not feasible, then war.
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separation is good but what I keep pressing for is what method you propose to limit your norm of "if the noise shows up, then the noise averse should leave" ? if I leave McD and go to Chilis, and the grandmother follows me, then I go to Longhorn, and GM follows, then sushi...
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Replying to @MorlockP
>what method you propose to limit your norm Norms evolve, and they pool, and they pool separately. Some of those places will accommodate granny, some you. And in all of them it's not necessarily obvious - or even settled! - what the prevailing norms are.
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Replying to @random_eddie @MorlockP
And norms should be defended! You were defending yours. That's laudable! I was defending mine (also laudable!). Hopefully we can find common ground ("... maybe we don't know the whole story") rather than do battle.
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