Oh also: David's chart, which puts Sutra as renunciate and Tantra as exultant (https://vividness.live/2013/10/23/sutra-vs-tantra/ …) seems (to my very new understanding) to be in contradiction to the chart from Rigpa Wiki (https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Nine_yanas …) with the "outer tantras" as ascetic. ascetic ≠ renunciate?
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Replying to @Malcolm_Ocean @_awbery_
Yes, since the sutra-vs-tantra distinction is difficult enough for beginners, I avoid talking about all the within-tantra distinctions. The purificatory yanas are another whole different thing, although emically counted as tantra. They don’t seem useful in (post)modernity.
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I’m describing “tantra” more-or-less from the view of anuyoga (which appears on the rigpawiki chart). That corresponds roughly to “nondual tantra” in some other Tibetan systems. https://vividness.live/2012/04/28/the-power-of-an-attitude/ …pic.twitter.com/FcuSZfNVCt
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Huh! Ok, so... is that why Bodhisattva "vows" don't quite make sense in tantra? Because instead of saying, "I vow to keep trying for the impossible" it's like... get on with it? (I'm reminded of Alan Watts saying, "Oh, come off it, Shiva!")
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Right! Although it's more that the vows are understood differently: as "I vow to maintain awareness that I am always already a fully-enlightened Buddha, and THEREFORE have benevolent intent, and the power to actualize it." https://vividness.live/2015/11/27/emptiness-form-and-dzogchen-ethics/ …pic.twitter.com/a41RSjes77
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Replying to @Meaningness @SarahAMcManus and
Putting my cards on the table: I'm a tantrika & dzokchenpa...and I don't think the excerpted paragraph below is really fair to many many Mahayana practitioners I know. (Zen people, all of them.) I don't see them tripping over themselves about sunyata. They get it
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Replying to @Timber_22 @Meaningness and
I really like
@Meaningness 's writing, but sometimes David throws elbows that are unfair. (I know this piece is from a while back; we all change).1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes -
Replying to @Timber_22 @Meaningness and
And, having said that, there are views, practices and teachings in Dzokchen & Tantra that are more effective for a guy like me, & superior for my purposes, and not available from most Zen teachers (unless they have practiced dzogchen as well)
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Replying to @Timber_22 @Meaningness and
and i do think that the dzogchen view of "emptiness" is experientially both closer to reality, and more experientially workable and - pardon the pun - *fruitful* than the presentation available within Mahayana.
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Replying to @Timber_22 @Meaningness and
Finally - just to complicate things even more...I've definitely worked with zen people who have, and can transmit in words and in presence, a view that is remarkably similar to dzogchen, without using any of dzogchen's characteristic language. They're rare but they're around
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