interesting. Chagmé Rinpoche taught me in a system that doesn't include sems de or klong de.
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Semde and longde were almost entirely displaced by menngakde (for interesting historical reasons partly explained in David Germano’s Funerary Transformation paper). They persisted only in a handful of minor lineages.
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Replying to @Meaningness @chagmed and
Huh, so that seems like it might mean that the dzogchen line of the diagram above would only be accurate for... Aro? Nyingma? Wondering what the others would look like...
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Replying to @Malcolm_Ocean @chagmed and
That line expresses the correspondences of the phases of the four naljors semde ngondro with other yanas. That ngondro is not, itself, Dzogchen. And, the phases only correspond with the other yanas in a functional, metaphorical sense (that shine’s result is emptiness, etc).
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Replying to @Meaningness @Malcolm_Ocean and
Semde, longde, and menngakde are not sequential; they are different approaches within the Dzogchen. They have the same base and the same result. (More-or-less; some pedantic scholars might quibble about this.)
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Replying to @Meaningness @Malcolm_Ocean and
Dzogchen overall begins where tantra ends, namely nonduality. So the diagram of lines is accurate except that the naljor is not actually Dzogchen, and that the dé are not sequential.
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Replying to @Meaningness @Malcolm_Ocean and
Dzogchen is taught mainly by the Nyingma, but not exclusively so. The Drukpa branch of the Kagyud School is noted for teaching Dzogchen, for example. So was the Great Fifth Dalai Lama, of the Gelug School, and the current Fourteenth DL has revived that tradition.
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Replying to @Meaningness @Malcolm_Ocean and
Dzogchen is a yana; Nyingma is a sect. Post below explains the difference. The Nyingma lineages teach all the yanas, not just Dzogchen. In fact, Dzogchen was a rare teaching in the Nyingma in pre-modern times.https://vividness.live/2013/11/25/yanas-are-not-buddhist-sects/ …
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Replying to @Meaningness @Malcolm_Ocean and
More accurately I should say that “Nyingma” designates a heterogeneous group of sects. The word just means “old.” The Nyingma sects are all those that trace their lineages back before the advent of the Sarma (“New”) sects around 1050. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyingma#Second_dissemination_and_New_translations …
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Replying to @Meaningness @Malcolm_Ocean and
Dzogchen was considered the distinctive teaching of the Nyingma largely because the Sarma Schools mainly rejected it. (With exceptions as noted.) They rejected it because it calls the bluff on the contradiction between emptiness and religious norms:https://vividness.live/2015/11/27/emptiness-form-and-dzogchen-ethics/ …
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That made it politically explosive, so in practice Dzogchen was taught to a tiny elite only. The Nyingma lineages, like the Sarma, taught conventional morality, and the lower yanas, to nearly everyone. The Dzogchen texts and doctrines were kept mainly secret.
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Replying to @Meaningness @Malcolm_Ocean and
The political suppression of Vajrayana in the West in the 1980s-1990s was initially a suppression of Dzogchen. Tarthang Tulku taught it openly to non-Tibetan lay people, which was sort of like if a new Pope publicly proclaimed that at its core Catholicism was a pedophile sex cult
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Replying to @Meaningness @Malcolm_Ocean and
I know Trungpa was teaching Dzogchen early, late 60s in UK, but not so much openly, and not to groups (AFAIK) Then he moved to USA and took on a more gradual approach, particularly after ‘72ish IIRC. So Tarthang Tulku was teaching openly to groups? Cool
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