Don't remember who said it, but..."How do you know you want to attain Enlightenment? You might not like it."
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S. T. Suzuki Roshi, maybe? The process of getting to stage 5 is generally awful, and once there it’s a letdown if you were expecting it would solve problems it doesn’t. So, yes…
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Why is it awful?
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Each of the stage transitions requires you to abandon a comfortable, functional way if being that you called “myself” and to accept that you will be confused and lost and dysfunctional and fucking up often for several years as you learn the difficult new way of being.
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Replying to @Meaningness @AtaraxJim and
So..1 story coming out of this synthesis here is that those of us who have given up on rationality being The Way at age 28 have ~12 years ahead of us stuck in the wilderness before we can be...whatever the fuck 5 is :P (Or we're v, v wrong about our relationship to rationality)
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Replying to @utotranslucence @Meaningness and
I mean, and/or the Kegan stages are a partial model anyways, and we can play at being at different levels...
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Replying to @utotranslucence @AtaraxJim and
Yes, fwiw I think they can be brilliantly illuminating in some cases, but don’t seem to fit some people’s experience at all, and in any case shouldn’t be concretized.https://youtu.be/m3dZl3yfGpc
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Replying to @Meaningness @AtaraxJim and
I haven't listen to the podcast yet, I'll admit--do you know what the biggest reason Kegan gives for no 5's younger than 40? (I.e. what does his theory say, not just 'we didn't find any')
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Replying to @utotranslucence @AtaraxJim and
Afaik there’s no mechanism story; the claim is purely empirical. My mechism story is that you have to have spent enough years in stage 4 to have a felt sense of the patterns in both its working well and in its failing. (Intellectual understanding that it sometimes does fail is >
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Replying to @Meaningness @utotranslucence and
> helpful but not nearly sufficient.) It takes several years to accumulate that experience after you’ve already mastered stage 4 (so it usually does work), and usually you don’t master 4 until mid-20s
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And once you realize 4 can’t be made to work as advertised, you are only at 4.5 which can be several years of hell (although this seems not everyone’s experience) before you get to operate at 5 reasonably reliably, because you need to learn the 5ish skills and there’s no guide
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Replying to @Meaningness @utotranslucence and
David, when do you think you achieved stage 5?
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Replying to @MimeticValue @utotranslucence and
I am not qualified to categorize anyone, least of all myself!
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