I would guess that it's exactly the same phenomenon, but would be interested and open to learning that it's something different. There's a lot of confusion around similar terms meaning different things in these realms.
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Replying to @OortCloudAtlas
Is there an explicit equation in Theravada of cessations in meditation with the stages of the death and rebirth experiences?
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Replying to @Meaningness @OortCloudAtlas
FWIW, there are several things in Vajrayana lineages which sound a lot like Therevadan cessation - but I don’t know enough directly to be able to add much to the different/same phenomenology debate There’s also the matter of metaphysics and phenomenology getting muddled.
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It’s interesting how attitudes towards the in/significance of cessation changed over the development of dzogchen lineages. I’d like to learn more about the history of how the metaphysics/phenomenology developed with different practices...but I suspecct the history isn’t there.
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Replying to @misen__ @OortCloudAtlas
Is this in the bardo literature, or elsewhere? Pointers? Tx
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Replying to @Meaningness @OortCloudAtlas
Mi'sen Retweeted Mi'sen
I was thinking of some references in a few namthars and pith instruction texts. I was thinking of mostly this sort of thing:https://twitter.com/misen__/status/1053336842697875457?s=21 …
Mi'sen added,
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Replying to @misen__ @OortCloudAtlas
Ah! Hmm. This is interesting for the explicit use of the word “cessation”… I’ve read and heard similar warnings in Dzogchen contexts, but I had interpreted them somewhat differently. (It’s probably pointless to try to discuss this on twitter, but…) >
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I had understood the Dzogchen warnings as referring to a (pretty familiar) state you drift into gradually as you lose touch with the world, a sort of anesthetic loss of clarity culminating in something similar to deep sleep without consciousness.
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Replying to @Meaningness @misen__
“Subtle dullness” at its worst, in the TMI way of taking.
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Replying to @OortCloudAtlas @misen__
Yes, this is called “sleepy shi-né” in Dzogchen. It’s easy to mistake for né-pa (the goal of shi-né).
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“Tsi-tsi” is Tibetan for a marmot, which spends fall, winter, and spring asleep in a burrow. Not a brilliant animal, although awfully cute. “Gomchen” means “great meditator,” a mild honorific.
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“Tsi-tsi gomchen” is a cautionary term: someone who spent their three-year retreat in a cave, “meditating” in a state of withdrawal into dazed oblivion. They come out at the end about as enlightened as a marmot.
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