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Meaningness's profile
David Chapman
David Chapman
David Chapman
@Meaningness

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David Chapman

@Meaningness

Better ways of thinking, feeling, and acting—around problems of meaning and meaninglessness; self and society; ethics, purpose, and value.

meaningness.com/about-my-sites
Joined September 2010

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    1. Kaj Sotala‏ @xuenay 17 Apr 2019
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      Replying to @xuenay @_awbery_

      I think of this one as kinda sutric in that it tries to drop desires which produce bad feelings; but then that is also happening in service of some greater purpose rather than for its own sake, so I don't think of it as renunciate as such.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Charlie Awbery‏ @_awbery_ 17 Apr 2019
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      Replying to @xuenay

      Yes, that seems Sutric to me too - & also seems accurate that renunciate practice occurs in service of a greater purpose (I think that’s usually the case, & I wouldn’t discount it being renunciate because of that).

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    3. Kaj Sotala‏ @xuenay 18 Apr 2019
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      Replying to @_awbery_

      Hmm. I was thinking that I've understood renunciation as being something like withdrawing from ordinary life and the world (as described at e.g. http://arobuddhism.org/community/an-uncommon-perspective.html … ), and that if you are using a technique to accomplish your aims *in* the world, it wouldn't be renunciate?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Charlie Awbery‏ @_awbery_ 18 Apr 2019
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      Replying to @xuenay

      Yes: when Sutra/renunciation is your yana (path/worldview) that’s right, it would make no sense at all. But Tantra is meta to Sutra, by definition, so when Tantra is your overarching worldview, Sutra is ‘object’ - ie, you can approach it as a method.

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    5. Charlie Awbery‏ @_awbery_ 18 Apr 2019
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      Replying to @_awbery_ @xuenay

      Tantric worldview is entirely different to Sutric renunciation. It looks, sounds and feels different. It can’t be held at the same time as Sutric worldview, they’re either-or. I mean, they are saying different things about the world and how it works that can’t both be true.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Charlie Awbery‏ @_awbery_ 18 Apr 2019
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      Replying to @_awbery_ @xuenay

      When Tantra is approached as a path, adopted as a worldview in its own right, Sutra/renunciation looks slightly different to how it looks when it’s your guiding worldview - and its purpose is subsidiary to the aims of Tantra, (ie, always localized and contextualized.)

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Charlie Awbery‏ @_awbery_ 18 Apr 2019
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      Replying to @_awbery_ @xuenay

      Because Tantra is meta to Sutra, adopting renunciative, Sutric worldview and trying to incorporate Tantric-style practices within that as tools doesn’t really work, imo. Not only that it doesn’t make sense, I mean it actually doesn’t work: Tantric practice can’t function >

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Charlie Awbery‏ @_awbery_ 18 Apr 2019
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      Replying to @_awbery_ @xuenay

      toward achieving the aims/purpose of Sutra, it can only mess it up. One *could* approach Tantric practice from a renunciative path if they’d been practicing renunciative methods exclusively very long-term, over many years. >

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    9. Charlie Awbery‏ @_awbery_ 18 Apr 2019
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      Replying to @_awbery_ @xuenay

      At that point Tantric practice functions with the whole intent of messing up the renunciative worldview! That can be extraordinarily powerful for long-term renunciate practitioners, as is any expansive psychological/spiritual breakthrough.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Kaj Sotala‏ @xuenay 18 Apr 2019
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      Replying to @_awbery_

      That makes sense. I guess in that case, my original objection could be rephrased as something like "you said that sutra is the Buddhism that most people are familiar with, but in practice I think that reading many modern teachers ends up imparting a tantric worldview".

      3 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 18 Apr 2019
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      Replying to @xuenay @_awbery_

      Roughly this is argued by @agleig in this paper (which is a must-read if interested in the topic). I would agree with her that there’s been a synthesis, and with @_awbery_ that it’s a dubious one and conceptual clarification should help.https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14639947.2013.832496 …

      9:47 AM - 18 Apr 2019
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      • Ann Gleig Kaj Sotala Charlie Awbery
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        1. New conversation
        2. engagedharma.net‏ @engagedharma 18 Apr 2019
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          Replying to @Meaningness @xuenay and

          Well, I started out in Vajrayana/tantra, i.e. Shambhala, then Nalandabodhi. Switched to Theravada, i.e Sri Lankan tradition (never Insight Med). I am now a tantric Theravadan. I do both, and I don't try to make sense out of it, I just live and do it the way it suits me.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. engagedharma.net‏ @engagedharma 18 Apr 2019
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          Replying to @engagedharma @Meaningness and

          The interesting things was a dissertation I read on the history of the Abhayagiri vihāra, which showed that tantra was widely practice in Sri Lanka, among monks and lay people, even more than Mahayana.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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