Ah… then “it’s not the shape, it’s the specific power dynamics” seems the right diagnosis (or a significant part of one).
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Replying to @Meaningness @VincentHorn
OTOH it seems that the rejection of “The Guru Model” is often a blanket rejection of any asymmetrical relationship. It’s usually contrasted with “The Spiritual Friend Model,” which sounds nice because friendship is a symmetrical relationship. But that model doesn’t exist either…
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Replying to @Meaningness @VincentHorn
This is where I personally get stuck when trying to imagine a future Vajrayana. As long as those simplistic alternatives are the only available conceptions of teachers, it’s impossible.
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Replying to @Meaningness
I’ve experienced profound transmission experiences with close teachers, and have entered into insanely deep relationships with students. I see this reflected in my cohort of peers also, though it isn’t talked about openly much...
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Replying to @VincentHorn
Yes, it seems delicate. But if there’s a way of talking about it openly, that might be of great value.
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Replying to @Meaningness
Granted this happened after years of relationship and having built up tremendous trust already. I think that was essential, and is essential, to these more profound, non-conventional relationships.
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Replying to @VincentHorn
Yes, generally, years of relationship are critical. That’s one of the key points missed in the I-like-the-spiritual-friend-model-better discourse.
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Replying to @Meaningness @VincentHorn
OTOH, if there’s enough trust established immediately, magic is also possible. Many tales of this in the literature, but also contemporary accounts. So it was functional to build up gurus as near-gods in the tradition; it made it possible to skip a lot of relationship-building.
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Replying to @Meaningness @VincentHorn
Obviously that has numerous drawbacks, but it’s hell of efficient. One of the biggest obstacles for deep contemporary teaching is that hardly anyone (teachers or students) has the time to build the necessary sort of relationship.
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Replying to @Meaningness @VincentHorn
It’s time-efficient to sit in front of a room of a hundred people and talk. But if students see the teacher just as a dispenser of information, all they are going to get is information. If they think the teacher can magically transmit enlightenment… that might happen.
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But then the real work of integrating the transmission with everyday reality begins, and there’s no known substitute for years of individualized one-on-one teaching for that… (just thinking out loud here)
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Replying to @Meaningness
Not surprisingly, I wholeheartedly agree with this point.
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