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Meaningness's profile
David Chapman
David Chapman
David Chapman
@Meaningness

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David Chapman

@Meaningness

Better ways of thinking, feeling, and acting—around problems of meaning and meaninglessness; self and society; ethics, purpose, and value.

meaningness.com/about-my-sites
Joined September 2010

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    1. Kaj Sotala‏ @xuenay 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @Meaningness @ribbonfarm

      There have been some fights about it on LW and in other places, e.g. the thread starting from nshepperd's comment at https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/5LP6Jc8ztwcyb296X/outline-of-metarationality-or-much-less-than-you-wanted-to … . I assumed that you were aware of it, since your writings occasionally get cited in those arguments, but I guess I was mistaken.

      3 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    2. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @xuenay @ribbonfarm

      Whoa, that looks like an exhausting and frustrating conversation! I’ve only scrolled through it rapidly, and even THAT was exhausting and frustrating! Kudos to you for persisting.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    3. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @Meaningness @xuenay

      From the superficial impression I got, this was pretty much the standard argument-with-stubborn-rationalist that I’ve been having since 1987. I didn’t see in it the tribalism discussion. (But I only scrolled through it rapidly.) @ribbonfarm

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @Meaningness @xuenay @ribbonfarm

      I totally believe the tribalist discussion exists, and I think I have seen one brief example of it on LW somewhere. It’s true that postrats/metarats (including me) can be irritable and dismissive of rationalists when they get into the sort of argument you had there.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    5. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @Meaningness @xuenay @ribbonfarm

      That seems rather different from tribalism, though; there isn’t a postrat or metarat tribe. LW-style rationalists do identify as a tribe, and I suspect accusations of tribalism stem from projection? “We’re a tribe, they disagree with us, so they must be a tribe too”?

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Kaj Sotala‏ @xuenay 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @Meaningness @ribbonfarm

      We might understand tribalism differently. I was thinking of the way that any group label can potentially become divisive by creating an us vs. them - especially if one of the sides is implied to be superior, regardless of whether that was *meant* to be implied.

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    7. Kaj Sotala‏ @xuenay 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @xuenay @Meaningness @ribbonfarm

      A natural reading of some of your stuff is that it's saying that rationalists are stupid and limited, postrationalism is better, and here are all these snide comments about rationalists, and if you disagree it's just because you're not sophisticated enough yet, but maybe someday.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    8. Kaj Sotala‏ @xuenay 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @xuenay @Meaningness @ribbonfarm

      Regardless of whether you meant it like that or not, it's not very much of a stretch to get that reading. And then people get dismissive and defensive and get hostile towards anything that smells of post/metarationality.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Kaj Sotala‏ @xuenay 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @xuenay @Meaningness @ribbonfarm

      Also I think that the perceived pattern is getting (and not even incorrectly) pattern-matched to similar-sounding things, like Val's post on Kensho, which also annoyed several people and felt like woo to them. Which obviously isn't your fault, but still happened.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    10. Kaj Sotala‏ @xuenay 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @xuenay @Meaningness @ribbonfarm

      And of course none of this is your problem or fault in the first place, you're just writing your book and it's not responsibility how it might be interpreted on random places like LW. I just feel like the framing is making people less receptive to its message.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @xuenay @ribbonfarm

      Well… I hope that the eggplant book, when/if I finish it, will be easy for typical LW people to understand, and many will actually get it. It tries to say clearly and straightforwardly things that have only previously been said obscurely in dense technical jargon.

      3:09 PM - 21 Mar 2019
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      • Henrik Jonsson Ian Hines Timothy #masks4all Roy Kaj Sotala
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        2. Kaj Sotala‏ @xuenay 22 Mar 2019
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          Replying to @Meaningness @ribbonfarm

          I feel like we got a little sidetracked from what was my original point - it wasn't really about LW rationalists as such, but rather about the broader orange/green/yellow divide (which affects discussions on LW among other places). Let me try to rephrase -

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Kaj Sotala‏ @xuenay 22 Mar 2019
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          Replying to @xuenay @Meaningness @ribbonfarm

          People experience orange and green as being opposed because of narratives which paint them as being opposed. Then people who tend towards one side or the other, will tend to dismiss the opposite side, because they buy into the narrative that says it's one or the other.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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