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Meaningness's profile
David Chapman
David Chapman
David Chapman
@Meaningness

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David Chapman

@Meaningness

Better ways of thinking, feeling, and acting—around problems of meaning and meaninglessness; self and society; ethics, purpose, and value.

meaningness.com/about-my-sites
Joined September 2010

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    1. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 18 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @DRMacIver @ESYudkowsky @mcallisterjp

      Oh! I’d be very interested to know the original if anyone can find it, then! Would like my version to point there. @ESYudkowsky, do you know?

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    2. Lucy Keer‏ @drossbucket 18 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @Meaningness @DRMacIver and

      I found this in a book from 1990. Probably not the original source either, but it predates Yudkowsky's version: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jklsb5JUgoQC&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=counting+with+stones+sheep&source=bl&ots=wV_G2PuvZH&sig=ACfU3U1M8XsZHSn_ANdpk_z17vxwrI0BYg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-1aqf3MXgAhU3QxUIHQKvBgE4ChDoATABegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=counting%20with%20stones%20sheep&f=false …pic.twitter.com/UD90y88BKg

      2 replies 0 retweets 10 likes
    3. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 18 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @drossbucket @DRMacIver and

      A bit of logic geekery from my version. “You shouldn’t believe anything anyone says about the times table.”pic.twitter.com/LwhHJGygDp

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    4. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky 18 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @Meaningness @drossbucket and

      Presberger arithmetic can be proven correct in a more powerful system then Presberger arithmetic. Peano arithmetic can be proven sound in ZF or much more simply proven consistent by induction on the wellfoundedness of epsilon-zero. I see little moral difference.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    5. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 18 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @ESYudkowsky @drossbucket and

      I agree! The footnote is intended as satire, ridiculing logicism as an account of mathematical foundations.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky 18 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @Meaningness @drossbucket and

      I do think it’s inaccurate to say Presburger arithmetic is provably consistent and Peano arithmetic is not. If that’s a joke it’s likely to mislead unless explained. (Also, Presberger is decidable and complete; first-order arithmetic is recursively enumerable and complete.)

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky 18 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @ESYudkowsky @Meaningness and

      And whether you should *believe* the times table is about whether the times table is *sound* on a domain (which must include a correspondence theory!) and this semantic property is mathematically and practically a very different concept from consistency, a syntactic property.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky 18 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @ESYudkowsky @Meaningness and

      Under other circumstances I might not nitpick that hard, but it is literally what your book is about.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 18 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @ESYudkowsky @drossbucket and

      I think you’re missing the point here, which is natural since the quote is very much out of context. (It comes about half way through the book, after a lot of conceptual machinery has been built up already.)

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky 18 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @Meaningness @drossbucket and

      Could be. Maybe I’m too suspicious. Out of context, it does sound a lot like some extremely common mixups about proof theory.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 18 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @ESYudkowsky @drossbucket and

      This comes after a hundred pages explaining all the ways logicism is wrong, so I think in context there will be little room for readers to misunderstand it as anything other than a satire, based on the obvious fact that there is no meaningful doubt about multiplication.

      12:06 PM - 18 Feb 2019
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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        2. Eliezer Yudkowsky‏Verified account @ESYudkowsky 18 Feb 2019
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          Replying to @Meaningness @drossbucket and

          I’m not worried about the reader doubting multiplication, I’m worried about spreading the common misconception that PA cannot be proven consistent. It can be, and the proof reduces to a proposition that can be made wordlessly self-evident, like the termination of a hydra game.

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        3. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 18 Feb 2019
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          Replying to @ESYudkowsky @drossbucket and

          OK… this is something I am not at all worried about. (Possibly interesting generalization: the sorts of things you and I worry about are different although not disjoint.)

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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