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Meaningness's profile
David Chapman
David Chapman
David Chapman
@Meaningness

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David Chapman

@Meaningness

Better ways of thinking, feeling, and acting—around problems of meaning and meaninglessness; self and society; ethics, purpose, and value.

meaningness.com/about-my-sites
Joined September 2010

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    1. Michael Porcelli‏ @michaelporcelli 1 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @Meaningness @ESYudkowsky

      Maybe I get you more with last tweet @Meaningness — you don’t see Actual Person as agent-with-a-goal, but pluralistic with sometimes conflicting goals; DT doesn’t apply holistically b/c Actual Person has no Actual Utility Function; your point more organismic than mathy — close?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 1 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @michaelporcelli @ESYudkowsky

      Yes. All except the last bit: it’s true and important that people are apes, but that wasn’t the point here. If an “abstract agent” has incommensurable goals, DT doesn’t apply. “Organismic” doesn’t bear on the problem.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 1 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @Meaningness @michaelporcelli @ESYudkowsky

      Caveat: I’ve studied only the mainstream version of DT; there may be extensions that handle incommensurable goals in limited cases, I don’t know. I can’t see how one could handle the general case (but who knows, maybe I’m missing something and there’s an extension that does).

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    4. Michael Porcelli‏ @michaelporcelli 1 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @Meaningness @ESYudkowsky

      Cool! To clarify, you’re point is about the nature of the agent, not about math? The agent has no actual utility function, ya?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 1 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @michaelporcelli @ESYudkowsky

      The point is that the math doesn’t apply unless/until you identify actions, outcomes, and preferences. Those are abstract entities; they are not objective features of the world.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    6. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 1 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @Meaningness @michaelporcelli @ESYudkowsky

      When you can more-or-less map the entities required by DT (or any mathematical framework) onto a situation, the math may give more-or-less meaningful results. Sometimes, for DT, this wins big!

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 1 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @Meaningness @michaelporcelli @ESYudkowsky

      Sometimes you can’t meaningfully map DT onto a situation (because there aren’t identifiable preferences or actions or outcomes). Sometimes you can do that and it still doesn’t work, because math isn’t mostly-truth preserving, only absolute-truth preserving.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 1 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @Meaningness @michaelporcelli @ESYudkowsky

      So I think I still don’t understand what @ESYudkowsky’s claim here is. Is the claim that you *can* always do a mapping? Or that you *should* always do a mapping? Or that *if* you can, then you should? Or that in somehow you should even when you can’t?

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    9. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 1 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @Meaningness @michaelporcelli @ESYudkowsky

      To complicate further, I guess “can” could be interpreted two ways here, as “can, as an actual human on the scene” vs “can, as an omniscient hypercomputational external God.”

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    10. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 1 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @Meaningness @michaelporcelli @ESYudkowsky

      I don’t actually care what Gods can/can’t do. But, since actions, outcomes, and preferences are not objective features of reality, I don’t think they could always apply DT either.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 1 Jun 2018
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      Replying to @Meaningness @michaelporcelli @ESYudkowsky

      And, if the force of the claim is “should,” the question would be what sort of should that is.

      8:53 AM - 1 Jun 2018
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 1 Jun 2018
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          Replying to @Meaningness @michaelporcelli @ESYudkowsky

          My suspicion is that this turns out to be circular. You start with the implicit assumption that there must be something to maximize. That is what gives “should” its force: you *should* apply DT, because if you don’t, you won’t maximize.

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        3. David Chapman‏ @Meaningness 1 Jun 2018
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          Replying to @Meaningness @michaelporcelli @ESYudkowsky

          Maybe the “Law” formulation is just: “if you accept these premises, then these consequences hold.” But that’s just equivalent to “this is actual math,” which no one doubts.

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        4. End of conversation

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