The law is the easy bit. Stickering and writing on public property like this is criminal damage, but that is unrelated to the message. Is the public message itself, which some find offensive and may be seen as "hateful" a crime? /3
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The possible offence is s 5 of the Public Order Act 1986. That section requires words that are "threatening or abusive." The word "insulting" has been deleted, and so "abusive" does not include that. Is this abusive? I think not. So no crime as a matter of the law. /4
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Should it be criminal? If we think, as utilitarians do, that the law is there to maximise something (happiness, preferences, something else) then it looks plausible that we should criminalise this. Perhaps the world would be happier overall if we banned such public words. /5
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if we think, as some moralists do, that law should in some way track morality, and seek to make us conform to our good reasons for action, then again we might want to criminalise this. The words are calculated to offend a group that understands them, for no good purpose. /6
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So, if the question were "Is posting such offensive messages a good way to behave?" the answer is no. It is a very bad way to behave, and the people doing it should stop doing so. but I don't think such moral reasoning is enough to justify criminalisation. /7
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Nobodies ability to live their life as they choose is set back by these words. Offence and upset are insufficient reasons to merit criminalisation. It is very unfortunate that the UK police seem to think they are in the business of making us be good. /end
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Replying to @SpinningHugo
Maya Forstater Retweeted Alessandra Asteriti
Nice thread. But i think u are missing that they were put up for good reason. To make a political argument (This one: https://twitter.com/AlessandraAster/status/1172421643768979456 …) not mindlessly to amuse or offend. i.e. is it offensive for a prison, a sports body, a doctor etc... to state that women are female?
Maya Forstater added,
Alessandra Asteriti @AlessandraAsterWhat is in a slogan? (short thread) TWAW. No debate. Get used to it. I see legal academics say this, especially to women and feminists. It is supposed to close down debate. But they are lawyers. Used to parse the meaning of words. So let's do some parsing.Show this thread3 replies 11 retweets 84 likes -
Replying to @MForstater
Of course that doesn't matter. My claim is that this is lawful, and ought to be, regardless of whether its sole purpose is to mindlessly offend.
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Replying to @SpinningHugo
Right. I know it doesn't matter for yr conclusion, but still along the way say that the context is 'to offend', when in fact the context is serious legal & policy changes which affect women's rights. The morality answer is not as clear cut as you present! https://euppublishing.com/doi/full/10.3366/scot.2019.0284 …
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Replying to @MForstater
Maybe, but as you can see I have no interest (at least for these purposes) in that question. I am interested in the justice of banning offensive words, not the question of who is right and who is wrong on the substantive question (which I think is irrelevant here).
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Fair enough. But that is not what the thread says. The thread comes to definite moral conclusions rather than remaining agnostic, and saying that moral conclusions don't matter here in any case.
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Replying to @MForstater @SpinningHugo
As far as I understand your argument you are making the point that even though it was morally wrong to place the stickers it is not criminal. The fact that you see it as morally wrong (or don't really care) offends those of us who think such actions are important.
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Replying to @AmandaGosling3 @MForstater
I don't care for the purpose of my argument no. The stickers should not be criminalised and the police are mistaken. If the stickers are not offensive (and I have transwomen in my timeline arguing strongly that they are offended) the issue I wished to address doesn't arise.
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