That's your experience. I'm routinely read as a young man or as a what's that. I'm female. I think you really underestimate how rigid gender norms are & how quickly ppl make snap judgements about others based on v basic stereotypical outward gender cues.
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Replying to @Finn_Mackay @citizencath and
Yes I agree people make snap judgements based on gender norms. But my point is people also read sex (and then bundle it up with gendered expectations) in the absence of *any* external gendered clothing cues...
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Replying to @MForstater @Finn_Mackay and
... So the idea that women who are routinely read as female, must be putting on a some external form of gendered expression also does not work.
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Replying to @MForstater @citizencath and
You are saying that some/all women don't put on an external form of gendered presentation? What is femininity then? Why do so many women talk of how they feel pressured to express femininity outwardly through gendered appearance?
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Replying to @Finn_Mackay @citizencath and
No I am saying most men & women if they wear "gender neutral" clothing that is neither coded male or female and they do nothing in terms of adopting a hairstyle, makeup, or other external cues are still correctly read as their sex
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Replying to @MForstater @Finn_Mackay and
And because they are correctly read as their sex, people apply gendered expectations (eg of who can be pushed around, talked over, sexually objectified etc) But it's not based on what a woman wears!
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Replying to @MForstater @citizencath and
Whether you are read as a woman or man actually depends v much on what you wear. I've been asked, when walking through Soho if I was "interested in a girl Sir?" I've been hit on by older gay men calling me a "nice young man". Has this happened to you in jeans & a boxy tee shirt?
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Replying to @Finn_Mackay @citizencath and
No it hasn't (at least since puberty I've not been mistaken for a boy). But presumably it would happen to a man wearing the same outfit. So how can it be clothes that are what mark me out as female?
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Replying to @MForstater @citizencath and
Why don't you try cutting your hair short & dressing in neutral clothing & see if in a queue one morning or getting on the bus you ever get misread & called Sir. Many women tell me that non compliance with femininity means ppl are often unsure of them or pronouns.
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Replying to @Finn_Mackay @citizencath and
Thanks. I've had long hair & short hair and I generally live in jeans and a hoodie when not at work. I used to get called "sonny" etc as a preteen, but never since puberty. Conversely my two teenage sons have similar hair to me, also live in jeans & hoodie, never get called miss
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I'm sitting in the pub right now and a couple have walked in wearing matching technical cycling gear, w jackets, helmets, snoods, shades. They are average height & dressed identically. I cannot see their hair. Even out of the corner of my eye I can see its a man and a woman...
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Replying to @MForstater @Finn_Mackay and
Yup, I once had to be got out of somewhere incognito (long story). It was in an Asian country where I stand out so had to be covered from head to toe. Long convo of whether to go male or female, until my friend and I realised that whatever I wore we couldn't disguise my sex
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Replying to @rachel__julia @MForstater and
I'm tall, not very curvy, flat chested. But female bodies are differently proportioned and there was zero chance of my passing as a man. So local women's clothes it was - and we sailed through.
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