Maya Forstater

I refuse this premise. I don't think it's based on data and science. Concerns of ppl in these situations should be heard, of course, IF this happens to be a bigger concern than others, which I doubt. I think we probably have to agree to disagree.

Lucia - you asked me for "actual instances" . So I gave you some actual instances. You said they were anecdotes, not data.

So I offer some data (I know it's imperfect) and you call it "bogus" without saying why. Yes I know the FPFW article is not a "study", but it is data from the DoJ. In what way is that bogus?

You say that the root of the problem is that I (and others) keep thinking abt trans women as inherently 'male'. Well yes. By definition to be a transwoman you have to be male.

You say we must assume that this sub- population of males do not have "male characteristics" eg in relation to sport and risk to women, but you have not offered any data for this. (its a big claim. It requires evidence)

Meanwhile you are saying that women in prison, refuges and shelters who have PTSD and who fear the presence of someone they recognise as male in women only spaces are a problem.

You are putting words in my mouth that are really not there. In the meantime, I have trouble following your arguments bc you keep shifting the goalposts. I don't think we can have more of a conversation than this

Bc we assume fundamentally different premises. You make the case that treating trans women as women is a problem, you mention specific instances, but seems to me that is much more generic. It's also weird to me that neither of these involve discussion of reproduction.