If I said a fersiopy is something that identifies as a fersiopy would you see that as circular? It tells you nothing about the nature of fersipoys. It's not a definition. How can a person tell whether they are inside the category or outside?
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Replying to @MForstater @SarahEOV and
I'm pretty sure when it comes to gender, folks know. I don't need a definition to tell me if they are, I can just ask them. (Just like I don't need a definition to tell me what I am.)
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I have a definition of woman - adult human female. It does not come with any expectations or requirements for gendered behaviour. It is clear, well understood & critical for women rights including the right to spaces without male bodies. Why ditch this for something undefinable?
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Replying to @MForstater @dalgoso and
Do you see that this excludes women who do not necessarily have the reproductive parts that “females” are thought to be born with? Why exclude? What are the gains there? Exclusion perpetuates the problems were trying solve, no?
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No it doesn't. Girls (most often XX but there are rare chromosome variations) who are born with female anatomy but eg incomplete vaginas, no uterus etc are female. Boys/ men who express traditionally feminine gender roles or have plastic surgery do not literally become women.
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Replying to @MForstater @SarahEOV and
What makes this group female? It seems like a 'logical construct': picking together assorted things (reproductive capacity, aesthetic, chromosomes), chucking these chosen items in a shopping trolley, calling it 'female'. Moreover, why does that constructed identity matter?
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Replying to @_alice_evans @SarahEOV and
Nope.Nothing aesthetic about it. Sex chromosomes & reproductive capacity are not randomly 'assorted things' plucked into a trolley. Everybody's mother was female. Everybody's father was male. Every person is one of these two types even if they don't go on to be mothers or fathers
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Replying to @MForstater @_alice_evans and
Why does it matter? Because women are discriminated against because of their sex. So we need to be able to name that. Because women need reproductive rights. So we need to be able to name that. Because words spell boundaries for privacy & body autonomy. Because risk assessment.
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Replying to @MForstater @_alice_evans and
Among other aspects, one of the most baffling things in this thread has been to see you pitting women's rights and trans rights as mutually exclusive. Even worse, you seem to partly blame those who advocate for trans rights for slow/lack of progress against misogyny.
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Replying to @sergiotpinto @_alice_evans and
I think that human rights, welfare & protection of both women and men, including people w gender dysphoria, transsexuals, all non gender conforming people can be achieved together. But this can't mean saying "women" as a sex don't exist or have no right to spaces away from males
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Take a look at the ppl who are concerned about this: lesbians, feminists, left wing campaigners, long time LGBT rights activists & ask yourself if they've really become overnight bigots, or if gender theory has driven a wedge between natural allies https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/janeclarejones.com/2018/09/09/gay-rights-and-trans-rights-a-compare-and-contrast/amp/ …
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Replying to @MForstater @sergiotpinto and
One more thing, we don’t need definitions of a group to prevent harms. We just investigate risks, and take steps to reduce harms, wherever they may be.
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Replying to @_alice_evans @sergiotpinto and
Women risk assess harms all the time. A stranger walks close to a lone woman on a dark street at night, wants to jump in a cab with her or sits close on an empty night bus. How do you risk assess? If stranger is female she is probably looking for safety in numbers, if a bloke...
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