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Jonathan_Blow's profile
Jonathan Blow
Jonathan Blow
Jonathan Blow
@Jonathan_Blow

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Jonathan Blow

@Jonathan_Blow

Designer/Programmer of Braid and The Witness. President, Thekla, Inc. Partner in IndieFund. Currently working on good new things.

San Francisco
the-witness.net/news
Joined January 2010

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    1. Tristan Hume‏ @trishume May 18
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow

      So given that the WebGPU developers don't have any influence over OS GPU abstractions, do you think they should have given up and not made anything, or write compilers that can accept all major shading languages on any OS, or are you saying SPIR-V?

      1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
    2. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow May 18
      Replying to @trishume

      I think they should work to fix the actual problem, which is that browsers are lame.

      1 reply 0 retweets 8 likes
    3. Tristan Hume‏ @trishume May 18
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow

      Okay so if nobody should work on abstracting GPU APIs in browsers, what about native? Given current APIs as fixed, do you endorse efforts to try to write a hardened abstraction over them, or just give up and everyone writes for each platform manually?

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
    4. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow May 18
      Replying to @trishume

      I think we should do what we did in the 1970s, which worked much better than what we are doing today.

      1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
    5. Tristan Hume‏ @trishume May 18
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow

      But that's not an option if I want to program GPUs today. I want a CPU-style toolchain straight to machine code for major GPUs cross-platform too. But that's not an option unless I form a decade-long conspiracy of friends to become execs at Apple, MSFT, AMD, Intel, Nvidia...

      2 replies 0 retweets 16 likes
    6. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow May 18
      Replying to @trishume

      Somebody has to be the adult in the room or things will continue to get worse.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    7. Tristan Hume‏ @trishume May 18
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow

      Like which concrete people do you want to do what concrete action? Everyone should stop working on GPU stuff until execs pay attention to the strike? Just everyone complain on Twitter? Anyone who wants to use a GPU should try to become a MSFT GPU exec instead?

      2 replies 0 retweets 11 likes
    8. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow May 18
      Replying to @trishume

      Know what’s extremely off-putting? Learned helplessness. Don’t be helpless.

      1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
    9. Tristan Hume‏ @trishume May 18
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow

      I already mentioned one of the two plans to a new driver equilibrium I think have a smidge of hope, the other being try to piggy-back off of WebGPU momentum and then work down unifying drivers from there. I'm interested in how you think we might get there. What's your plan?

      2 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
    10. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow May 18
      Replying to @trishume

      There are many possibilities. One is, build the thing. Build a pretend instruction set that is at a low level such that it would be targetable by any high-level language. Do a pass for LLVM that outputs to this. Then do all the gross garbage that up-translates this to

      3 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
      Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow May 18
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @trishume

      all the various shading languages. In the short term this is just another sucky shader language, but at least now it's at the right level of abstraction, so someone can do driver-level support in Linux, for example, then continue from there.

      8:02 PM - 18 May 2021
      • 6 Likes
      • meglio 💻 Scott Lee 🎮 A.J. Roberts Ivan Braidi ᜶ ᜀᜅ᜔ ᜉᜉᜇᜓᜈᜒ ᜶
      4 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
        1. Tristan Hume‏ @trishume May 18
          Replying to @Jonathan_Blow

          Cool thanks. This sounds like the nascent SPIR-V ecosystem and Mesa Vulkan drivers, except I'm guessing you want a lower level abstraction like CUDA PTX, which would come at perf cost when up-converting to high-level APIs.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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        2. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow May 18
          Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @trishume

          The representation could be an already-existing one (e.g. SPIR-V if you think that is okay), or a modification of that, if judged to be good enough. But the point is to push the ball in the right direction instead of the wrong direction.

          1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
        3. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow May 18
          Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @trishume

          I am suspicious of SPIR-V (look at all the weird special hardcoded stuff that's in there already), but have not used it so won't comment.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Show replies
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        2. Tom Forsyth‏ @tom_forsyth May 19
          Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @trishume

          Intel are doing close to this. It's hard to see through the fog of uncertainty, but OneAPI is groping toward that goal. It's a bunch of tools and languages and so on with interop as the focus. Of course it's Yet More Standards in the short term. We'll see where it leads.

          2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        3. Tom Forsyth‏ @tom_forsyth May 19
          Replying to @tom_forsyth @Jonathan_Blow @trishume

          An obvious tensions is between what Jon wants which is a super low level "assembly" that works on every GPU, and Intel's 50 years of experience doing this on CPUs where it's a gigantic pain in the arse.

          4 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
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